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a different kind of marriage...

M

Melanie

New Member
My apologies if this gets long...

I have been thinking a lot about these issues lately and you all seem to be a very scripturally astute bunch.

Is it possible for a marriage to exist without living with your spouse? Like if you could communicate often but only see each occasionally? Is it possible to have a marriage without having sex? Like if a first wife can tolerate another woman in the relationship as long as they are not affectionate or maybe the second wife just isn't physically, hubby's type?

I think we could all agree that a marriage does not have to contain romantic love to be valid and successful as long as the parties respect and have a sincere care for each other. So perhaps this could be a way for a single woman to enjoy the experience of being under the headship of a good leader even if she is doing it without the other benefits of marriage. Would this perhaps be an "easier sell" to first wives and perhaps open up more plural marriage opportunities?

As a single woman i do feel like i am missing out on a big part of what being a Christian woman is all about. Of course being part of a loving family is a great thing but if that is not available it would still be nice to have some sort of patriarchal influence type person to turn to, to respect, obey and in my own way encourage and support.

Is there anything biblically that would prohibit such an arrangement? That is non sexual/romantic marriage and/OR long distance marriage?
 
It's an interesting question, and I will have to give it considerably more thought before penning a complete reply.

But I will give an "initial reaction" - which was to the use of terminology like "easier sell":

If there's any kind of "initial sell job" -- there's potentially an ULTIMATE disaster in the offing...

So my initial reaction would be to caution all concerned - PARTICULARLY the one in a position of headship and authority - to be extremely wary of such a trap.

The oft-noted prophecy of Isaiah 4:1 gives at least an example of women willing to offer a 'compromise' from the Biblical standard in order to "take away reproach". But having said, that, I would still note that consummation of the Covenant is by any measure an important part of the process, and any inclination to minimize what God has Written concerning the arrangement should be treated at least prayerfully, if not skeptically.


Blessings,

Mark
 
Mark C said:
It's an interesting question, and I will have to give it considerably more thought before penning a complete reply.

But I will give an "initial reaction" - which was to the use of terminology like "easier sell":

If there's any kind of "initial sell job" -- there's potentially an ULTIMATE disaster in the offing...
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I understand what you mean but my use of easier sell was a clumsy way of expanding the topic generally... I want to jump in here because i really hope the thread wont get caught up in the nitty gritty of a word or two and not address the whole.

I'm not facing that particular issue myself. My own issue is that i tend to meet men who are married to women who accept polygamy as biblically sound but have serious jealousy issues and i was thinking that being willing to not have sex with the husband may help alleviate those issues. The second type of man is one who is super particular about what he wants in a wife, now thats fine everyone has the partner of their dreams but not being a country breed 18 year old virgin, i don't make the cut :mrgreen: I do have qualities though and could prove a very useful asset.

I was just thinking would it be possible to be married to a man who would enjoy the responsibility of providing that cover to a woman in need of it, in exchange for his benefiting from whatever she may bring to the table, if, for whatever reason, they did not have a romantic/physical relationship. Would it still be a valid marriage?
 
My own issue is that i tend to meet men who are married to women who accept polygamy as biblically sound but have serious jealousy issues and i was thinking that being willing to not have sex with the husband may help alleviate those issues.
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Thanks for that clarification, Melanie. I don't want to get hung up on a word or two either, but sometimes the subtle distinctions are VERY important, and I think the distinction you made above is vital - because it demonstrates a concern for the first wife, and an understanding of the issues that can make or break a successful family.

The real key, I think, in this specific regard, is not the issue of sexuality itself, but the willingness of those involved to work with any such problems as they arise. (Because "the Adversary" hates God, and comes but to kill and destroy what He "has joined together". ANY marriage, and those who seek to follow Him in it, will be subjected to such attacks.)

It sounds a bit like you are addressing the "it's only about sex" pitfall. Ironically (or perhaps not ;) ) -- this is one of the many "paradoxes" about God's blessings that the Bible seems to show us. Perhaps it's a bit like "the last shall be first", the narrow path, the fact that those who seek to save themselves will be lost, that we learn to be kings and priests for Him by learning first to be servants, and so on. If we seek to satisfy lust, we will be unsatisfied, but if we seek instead to serve Him by honoring our Covenant to our spouse before Him, we will be blessed.

In other words, if we rightly don't make sex in marriage an idol, God is true to His promises and blesses us with joy in that union. Somehow, "seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you", comes to mind.

So I guess my comment is that there is a "narrow path" here as well. It is great to not be focused on sex, particularly to the extent that it shows that concern about dealing with issues of jealousy and communication. But neither is it appropriate to deny yourself, or your husband, all that God has to offer you both in that relationship. He made us as He did for very good reasons, and simply WILL bless our obedience to Him in honoring our Covenant. And this without question applies to your husband's other wife as well!

I have found the Song of Solomon (...of Songs) to be a tremendous blessing, and well worth continued consideration. (Bear in mind that it is about a polygynous wife as well.) A potential sister wife, and -- even more importantly -- your shared husband, must learn to deal with issues arising under his headship. Jealously may be among them, and will probably not be the most difficult one in any event, given the world that we increasingly face.

So - while I'm not willing to say that any marriage which He blesses is not a "valid" one, I would caution you to not to veer "either to the right OR to the left" . Such discussions with a potential sister wife show a level of consideration and concern which is admirable, and speaks of a willingness to deal with problems. Pray with her, and with him, "study to show yourself approved", and be willing to be led by His written Word. Do not shy away from the blessings that will follow.



Love in Him,

Mark
 
Melanie said:
Is it possible for a marriage to exist without living with your spouse? Like if you could communicate often but only see each occasionally? Is it possible to have a marriage without having sex? Like if a first wife can tolerate another woman in the relationship as long as they are not affectionate or maybe the second wife just isn't physically, hubby's type?
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Hi Melanie,

I think the only way to answer these questions would be to first define "marriage". After all, in today's perverse society, men can "marry" other men, so clearly "marriage" has already been altered beyond any recognizable definition in our culture. According to Scripture, sexual intercourse marked the transition from the betrothal period to full marriage, so any couple remaining in the first state would still seem to be married, although the relationship is never consummated.

There are a number of problems with this type of compromised relationship, however. First, once betrothed, the woman may ONLY ever have sex with her husband. This precludes later separation and remarriage, so she's essentially committing to a life of celibacy if she deliberately chooses this course of action. In addition, this form of marriage would be in direct violation of NT Scriptures that state they are to submit their bodies to meet each others sexual needs.

1 Cor. 7:5: "Do not deprive one another except with agreement for a time, to give yourselves to fasting and prayer. And come together again so that Satan does not try you because of your lack of self-control."

Avoiding sexual intercourse in order to lessen issues of jealousy between wives is the wrong way to go, in my opinion. I'm with Mark on this one. Consummation is an important and critical ongoing component of marriage. I could see taking in a single woman for various reasons that could benefit the woman and the family, but I would never confuse the issue as any form of marriage.

Regarding the long-distance marriage, there are certainly times where the husband and wife are required to be separated from each other for periods of time due to work, wars, etc. and they remain married. But the clear ideal is that they are to remain together as a family where feasible. I hope this has been some help.

Love in Him,
David
 
I would agree with these comments. Though I am not yet practicing polygony, before I moved to South Africa in February, 2006, I led a home church in the United States and there were mostly single women in the group. Looking back, I believe that some of them were supposed to become my wives, but even I did not understand this thing back then. It is only in the past year or so that God has taken me deep into understanding this thing. Last evening He took me even deeper and I now see it with a new set of eyes as I posted in the testimony section. One thing I would say from all this is that with the women in America, I stood in the place as their spiritual covering as though I were, in a sense, a 'spiritual husband' to them. I counseled them, I prayed with them, I worked with two of them in my practice, we all did things together as though we were a family, kids and all. This is because that is how I understood Isaiah chapter 4 then, and even taught it. However, once God showed me that it was a literal relationship and not just spiritual, I began to see it differently. :o Though the relationships of these women with myself and my wife at the time and with our level of understanding was great as it was, I can see how it would have been better if the fullness of marriage to them would actually have materialized. People, but women especially, NEED physical intimacy and not just sex.

In my opinion, the long and the short of it is that ALL parties have to be hearing from God and must let God lead them into the arrangment in order for it to have any chance to work, since it is so complex. Secondly, jealousy is a work of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit and has no place in ANY relationship, especially marriage. Just as with virtually anything we do, jealousy is a choice and one must decide NOT to be jealous, then ask the Lord to help them deal with the issue and He will. Jealously is rooted and grounded in fear and unbelief. It is the opposite of faith and love. Though it is nice to think that not having sex or some other special arrangement in a marriage in order to try to circumvent jelousy will work better, I do not believe it will. If a person is prone to jealousy and does not actively, with the help of God, strive to overcome that fleshly trait, no special relationship will work, because the jealous party wil just find something else to be jealous about. I believe that if you pray and let God lead you, when the time is right, it will happen and He will speak to you in order to direct your path in this thing. Time is short. If you are willing and obedient, God will provide the right man for you and make a way for you to be with him the way God designed it to be and it will be awesome. Further, I believe it will happen soon. Keep praying and keep believing.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
DrRay777 said:
Jealously is rooted and grounded in fear and unbelief. It is the opposite of faith and love. Though it is nice to think that not having sex or some other special arrangement in a marriage in order to try to circumvent jelousy will work better, I do not believe it will. If a person is prone to jealousy and does not actively, with the help of God, strive to overcome that fleshly trait, no special relationship will work, because the jealous party wil just find something else to be jealous about.
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Amen! I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The problem is not about sex or physical intimacy - the REAL problem is about jealousy. Let's face it, most guys, provided they have sufficient means and/or finances, would be all too willing to take multiple wives. Yet they aren't the ones with the potential jealousy issues. My own wife is the least jealous person I know, so it's a total non-issue for me. However, even though I know the final decision would be mine alone, I guarantee that if my wife had even the slightest jealous tendencies against my taking another wife, I wouldn't even consider another. Why would I want to ruin one wonderful relationship to end up with two miserable ones? If God is working behind the scenes, all the pieces will fall into place without any effort on my part. I've come to learn over the years that whenever I try to make something happen on my own, God gently shows me how I need to rely solely on Him.

Love in Him,
David
 
Melanie. Id say be cautious of any marriage without sexual involvement, as that may lead one, or the other astray eventually. Shalom
Rabbi Moshe
 
Wives submit to your husbands in all things.

wether you want a nonsexual rleationship or not it is not about what you want. It will be about what your husband wants.
 
It was never about NOT wanting a sexual relationship.

Nor denying myself or a potential husband anything. If i wanted to be a nun i would become a catholic.

It's more about valuing the relationship over the physical. I guess i cannot be surprised that the men on the board couldn't quite understand :lol:
Perhaps you would need to be a woman, and a single one, to understand where i am coming from. While i do understand the attitude of "marriage without sex, why bother?" I am surprised that being a husband and caring for a woman, providing her with patriarchal leadership is not so strong a calling amongst men that it would make the physical issues insignificant by comparison, that it would not be fulfilling in itself.
 
It's more about valuing the relationship over the physical. I guess i cannot be surprised that the men on the board couldn't quite understand :lol:
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Not at all, Melanie.

Speaking for myself, I understood exactly what you meant and why. It's just that it's genuinely, IMO, not advisable, and not in accord with His Word. Which, of course, is exactly why...


(And no kidding, really. ;) )



Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
I am surprised that being a husband and caring for a woman, providing her with patriarchal leadership is not so strong a calling amongst men that it would make the physical issues insignificant by comparison, that it would not be fulfilling in itself.
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My original response was largely tongue-in-cheek, Melanie, in response to the similar levity in yours.

But as I thought a bit more about the above, I felt that an additional comment was warranted. (And perhaps this goes to the sometimes-wide gulf between men and women, and will be equally obtuse...but here goes. :P )

The desire to care and provide for a woman, and provide patriarchal leadership, IS overwhelmingly strong. And strong enough, I have no doubt, to encourage BOTH men and women to make the mistake of thinking that such an arrangement might be the right thing to do. "There is a way that seems right to a man," as we are reminded, and it is a mistake (to put it lightly).

God made us male and female for His purposes. And, I say this in all sincerity, it is my contention that initial physical attraction may have little or nothing to do with it. But such a man WILL inevitably find, as should his helpmeet*, that their mutual desire to be one is exactly what God intended.



----------------------------

* See Gen. 3:16, although, yes, there is far more to this verse than meets the eye on initial reading.
 
I agree completely Mark. While caring for a woman and providing her with patriarchal leadership would certainly be fulfilling in itself (the same could be said of raising children), it certainly wouldn't be marriage as Scripture defines it.

Love in Him,
David
 
One final observation (well, at least final for now ;) ) on this aspect, Melanie:

I was lead (for other reasons) to re-read I Corinthians 7 this morning. It occurred to me afterward that there are aspects which apply to your concerns, and would apply to a period of betrothal, before consummation in other words, as well.

The word apostereō used in the fifth verse is translated in the KJV as "defraud". Probably more important, however, is the warning which follows:

Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

It makes sense to me that the betrothal period be a time of fasting and prayer, too -- and that fits well with your concept, I suspect, of learning to live under the caring and headship of a patriarchal husband. That period should last until two or three witnesses confirm that the time has arrived to seal the Covenant.


Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
Sealing the covenant, Mark? ;)

honeymoon.jpg
 
Melanie said:
It was never about NOT wanting a sexual relationship. Perhaps you would need to be a woman, and a single one, to understand where i am coming from. While i do understand the attitude of "marriage without sex, why bother?" I am surprised that being a husband and caring for a woman, providing her with patriarchal leadership is not so strong a calling amongst men that it would make the physical issues insignificant by comparison, that it would not be fulfilling in itself.
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I am not quite sure I understand your line of questioning. I think that the drive to gather wives is strong in a lot of men, but there is an instinct in me to protect women women as well. Fortunately for me, my wives do understand that instinct, and work with me when I bring the occassional "stray" home. But I have never looked at the women we took in as potential mates . . .
 
No...I'm not talking about "strays" either.

I'm really sad at the direction this thread has taken...

I'm not sure if you guys realize but so many of you who already have one spouse are taking a totally different approach to finding a second (and subsequent) all of a sudden now that you have one wife already you can afford to be choosy. So many families have an unrealistic list of requirements and very little room to accept any faults in a potential wife.

However, instead of looking at this massive hurdle you expect potential wives to leap over many put down the fact that they haven't found anyone yet to "god's will" or that there just aren't any women out there.

There are women out there with a very sincere desire to be married, who have useful skills and could be a real asset but they are often overlooked because they don't meet one of the more shallow conditions :roll:

So since the men aren't willing to compromise i thought maybe i could, if i was willing to keep some distance, forgo a romantic relationship (because it really DOESN'T matter in the long run, it's a very small price to pay) and accept a limited chance of children due to limited sexual opportunities. Not because I'm frigid or saintly attempting to sooth a first wives feelings... I'm just talking about getting a foot in the marital door here.

Men don't need to be married to serve god...but how can a woman serve without a husband? Yes i know we had feminism and "women are do'in it for themselves" but ...they shouldn't have to!
 
it looks to me that a lot of big hindrances come in the form of overcoming jealousy, and we are always looking for a way to pacify that beast.
personally, I tire of fighting that one, even in a household where there is no second wife, jealousy rears it's head demanding first place in everything. It seems to be a battle that goes back I've no idea how far, probably back to the garden of Eden.
So I have decided to face this beast head on in my own life. When I find a suitable woman, I'm going to be as big a gambler as Yahweh was with Job, I'll risk it all. If that kills what relationship I have, how much relationship did I really have?
Yes, I know that's a hard line, but to me it exposes reality for what it is.
 
Hi Melanie

Forgive us guys with overlooking the heart of your question. What we have attempted to answer is that God’s plan for marriage is an all-inclusive package with many facets, for the benefit of the woman, the man, the family, and thus society. So considering to compromise in one area, whatever that area is, is not what God had in mind.

Your statement about men and existing families setting a false standard is also noted and probably far too true. We men and existing families need to have eyes and hearts to see who the Lord is leading and not a set of preconceived notions of who that person is. The man answering his door in Isaiah 4:1, makes no mention of him having a list of physical attributes (blonde hair, this age, that height, etc.) posted at the front door. Having said that though I would be remiss not to say that we men should have a list of godly characteristics that begins with a soft and sensitive heart to the things of the Lord, and flows from there.

Your last statement, however, is one I would like to dwell on, “Men don't need to be married to serve god...but how can a woman serve without a husband?” A single woman can serve God in a variety of ways, from being a prayer warrior, to gifts of help and hospitality. See can be an encourager to other single women as well as coming alone side young woman who do not have a believing parent at home. The ways you can serve God are not limited to marriage, child-bearing, and domestic life.

Thank you for bringing this question up and for your patience in bearing with the men as we try and not only answer your question, but define and refine what society in general has so messed up in its understanding of marriage and families.

Ray
 
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