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0: When does marriage begin? - Structured discussion

I get it: you don't like the word 'own;' neither do I, but either it's not in Scripture, or it is, in which case it simply doesn't matter...

It's not. Even in the Hebrew.*

PS> No face diaper here, period.

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* No, not in the context of "ownership". His "own eyes", "his own land," "his own self," "his own vineyard," etc, even his "own nakedness," are all in there, frequently, 'as translated.' Mostly the possessive form of the Hebrew noun. But not daughter, in the form of 'ownership' as is implied by dancing angels.

Ask any Modern Fascist. 'Authority' and 'ownership' are no longer synonymous. And veto power is not ownership, nor is it license to command in all cases whatsoever. It's a power to say 'no,' in specific situations. And it's an authority that we had better learn to use, because the alternative is not only tyranny, it's death.
 
and every part of the ultimate circle created by the final version points to disposability (serial monogamy) : the girls(women) kill(monogamously marry) the flowers(husbands), the husbands(going to war with their nature) kill the spirit of the young girls(lie, cheat), being soldiers (angry at women/angry at men) kills the joy of the marriage; war kills the soldiers (fallen man), putting them in graveyards (land of incapacitated monogamous and cheating husbands and wives/ aka dry-bone-city, tombs!); graveyards then produce more flowers (young men ready to marry), which begins the horror anew!

I tried to lay out how I saw it above in parenthesis. Obviously this reveals a lot about me personally but it made sense in my mind - and I knew nothing about the history of the song.
 
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It's not. Even in the Hebrew.*

PS> No face diaper here, period.

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* No, not in the context of "ownership". His "own eyes", "his own land," "his own self," "his own vineyard," etc, even his "own nakedness," are all in there, frequently, 'as translated.' Mostly the possessive form of the Hebrew noun. But not daughter, in the form of 'ownership' as is implied by dancing angels.

Ask any Modern Fascist. 'Authority' and 'ownership' are no longer synonymous. And veto power is not ownership, nor is it license to command in all cases whatsoever. It's a power to say 'no,' in specific situations. And it's an authority that we had better learn to use, because the alternative is not only tyranny, it's death.

Can a man sacrifice something he does not own?
 
It's not. Even in the Hebrew.*

PS> No face diaper here, period.

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* No, not in the context of "ownership". His "own eyes", "his own land," "his own self," "his own vineyard," etc, even his "own nakedness," are all in there, frequently, 'as translated.' Mostly the possessive form of the Hebrew noun. But not daughter, in the form of 'ownership' as is implied by dancing angels.

Ask any Modern Fascist. 'Authority' and 'ownership' are no longer synonymous. And veto power is not ownership, nor is it license to command in all cases whatsoever. It's a power to say 'no,' in specific situations. And it's an authority that we had better learn to use, because the alternative is not only tyranny, it's death.
Now, every bit of that is helpful, Mark. I'm in agreement with you that many of those 'own' examples you've cited do not connote ownership (although, "his own land" and "his own vineyard" would, to me, clearly assert ownership, as in, what's the different between something being a man's own land and him owning the land -- same thing with the vineyard -- unless you're asserting some type of Native-American-type or Alexandria Occasional-Cortex religious belief that no one, but perhaps YHWH, ever owns anything). Are you asserting that, no matter what we're talking about, the highest pinnacle of the matter is 'belongs-to' possession and that ownership isn't even a valid concept? If so, I think we're in dangerous semantical waters, because 'ownership' is a mutually-held linguistic construct well-recognized by almost anyone with whom one could speak. It's a legal cliche that "possession is 9/10 of the law," but it is that other 1/10 we're delving into in this stage of this discussion. Most things that "belong to" us may just be a matter of mere temporary possession (setting aside the fact that everything is temporary, given our temporal nature on Earth), but some other things are considered at least in a legal sense to be "owned" by us, and that ownership confers certain well-established responsibilities and privileges on us in relation to them. Furthermore, something else is in play and has been well documented empirically and through general common-sense observation: human beings take far better care of (are better stewards towards) what they have ownership over than what they don't own -- and even than they just have mere temporary possession of.

You and I would probably differ, too, on where the lines of fascism and statism exist between (a) them and (b) individual freedom and autonomy. We often talk about fascists and statists as being those who control us, but they do not do so nearly as much through coercion as through the removal of freedoms and other privileges. They do not own us (as much as they lust for it and may eventually accomplish ownership if we don't collectively stand up against their manipulations somewhere far shy of running out of all privileges to remove), and they know they don't (perhaps yet) own us and can thus do little to force us to do their bidding. I therefore observe tyranny to exist far more in being part of a system in which one's leaders predominantly exercise their power through their power to veto, their power to say, "If you don't meet our approval, then you don't get to do x, y or z." The Patriot Act is a major example of this. All this 'woke' shit falls into that category. "You may continue to live in your house, but if you want to add on to it or get a permit to do anything else, we will deny you permission unless you agree to nonsense that will cost you twice the worth of your home just to expand it by 10%," which leads to people giving up on improving their environments as well as to translating into generalized lessening of geographical mobility.

As I wrote earlier, I too recoil from the spoken concept of owning one's children, but as their owner I become free to make all decisions for them, which, yes, does depend on the level of my maturity and degree of true forward-thinking love toward them, but, given their nascent states until they're fully grown, that frees me from having to take the path of the tyrant, who pretends with them that they can do whatever they want, giving them the freedom to make poor choices among fewer options rather than just making their choices for them until they are gradually taught to take over that function for themselves.

When we bring that dichotomy back to the macro adult societal level, I believe it would almost be better to be another person's slave than it would be to live within a world in which the leaders have no power to tell me what to do but have every power to take away any or all of my freedoms and other privileges. I had some deep conversations a few decades back with my elderly local state representative in the Georgia state house, whose own parents had been sharecroppers and whose grandparents had been born as plantation slaves. His strong opinion was that he was in the process of watching his own descendants' generations turning themselves back into what his parents and grandparents had struggled with as sharecroppers: his forebears and many they knew around them spent considerable time actually longing for the previous days of slavery, because during slavery almost everyone they knew could count on receiving the necessities of life because the slave owners generally treated them as investments they didn't want to squander. So they had food, clothes and shelter they could count on, but during Reconstruction they had a little land to work and were allowed to work it or abandon it and go do whatever they wanted, but the "whatever they wanted" was severely limited by Jim Crow and the dearth of freedoms and other privileges that left them at the mercy of the whites who worked the levers of whether they had access to them. My representative asserted that he had supported the Great Society programs as a younger man but knew by the time of our conversations that he would be the last MLK Republican elected to his suburban-Atlanta district, because those social/entitlement programs had molded most of the younger people of his race to return to that shareholder mentality that lusted for a return to de facto slavery without realizing it. (He told me his office hours were now -- this was in the early 1990's -- almost entirely taken up with people showing up with their hands out, insatiably expecting to be taken care of.) That's the tyranny I see being put in place in our country these days.

Bringing it back to the discussion on daughters, I have one on whom, in the context of extraordinary circumstances in the face of my history of insufficient leadership, I basically conferred early emancipation. She lives with us and can do almost anything she wants -- but has to take responsibility for anything she chooses to do, including paying for everything, which includes health care, dental care, car, gas, transportation, etc. I still love her, care for her, and am prepared to step in to provide her with loving, wise support when she requests it. I'm always on the lookout for ways in which I can get both my parenting and her on track, which is why these questions and answers have special significance for me; I know I can't put the horse back in the barn -- another motivation for rejecting simplistic either/or responses -- but I remain committed to minimizing the extent to which I behave like a tyrant. And unless I hear something tremendously persuasive, I'm probably going to continue to consider veto-dependent authority structures to be more tyrannical than ownership. I don't take my cues from Modern Fascists; to me, those folks are nothing but cowardly forward-guard jack-boot terroristic destroyers in the mold of the KKK; they can certainly wreak havoc, but they don't define the meaning of words just because they say so.
 
I tried to lay out how I saw it above in parenthesis. Obviously this reveals a lot about me personally but it made sense in my mind - and I knew nothing about the history of the song.
Obviously, sometimes I'm too literal/concrete.
 
Can a man sacrifice something he does not own?
I'll answer that in a second, coming only from my own limited perspective, but, first, I just have to point out, Pacman, that you very frequently answer questions with questions that dodge the original questions but never seem to get back to them. I still really desire your answers to the questions I and others have posed to your statements.

While my immediate gut-level reaction to your question of, "Can a man sacrifice something he does not own?" is, "No," the actual answer is a resounding, "Yes," because life is full of examples of things that one doesn't own that can involve sacrifice to give them up. I'll give an example: friendship. One doesn't own a friendship; it is a mutual relationship that depends entirely on ongoing mutual consent. More times than I can probably count in my life, I have knowingly offered to risk throwing a friendship with someone under the bus in service of offering them marital intervention that, in most cases, resulted in tire tracks on my end of the friendship but resulted in their marriage mending to the point of sticking together. In each case, I valued those friendships to the point of the loss of them being sacrifices -- in some instances, heartwrenching losses. I didn't own the friendships, but I loved the brothers and sisters involved, so I took the oft-necessary hit one takes for being the one who now knows too much.

Now I'm left to wondering privately how this example might weigh in on wayward daughters or marriages that don't receive the blessing of the wife's father . . .
 
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If you're referring to Jephthah - just because someone does something does not mean he had a right to do that thing. Remember the last verse of Judges before taking any of it as a guide to Godly behaviour.
Not to mention the last chapter of Numbers!
 
Touching on ownership...
Exo 21:7 "...if a man sell his daughter..."
and
1Co 6:20 "...ye are bought with a price..."
If "ye" is us, and we're a/the bride/s, then it would appear to support the idea that a bride (woman) is property; first as her father's daughter, and then as her husband's wife.
 
While my immediate gut-level reaction to your question of, "Can a man sacrifice something he does not own?" is, "No," but the actual answer is a resounding, "Yes," because life is full of examples of things that one doesn't own that can involve sacrifice to give them up.
I'd answer "Yes" for a far simpler reason - I could easily jump the neighbour's fence, steal a sheep, and burn it on an altar, thereby sacrificing something I do not own.
 
Touching on ownership...
Exo 21:7 "...if a man sell his daughter..."
and
1Co 6:20 "...ye are bought with a price..."
If "ye" is us, and we're a/the bride/s, then it would appear to support the idea that a bride (woman) is property; first as her father's daughter, and then as her husband's wife.
Thanks for this. I think we have covered this territory already, although I may be mistaken. I don't think anyone is disputing that we are owned by our Maker . . . or that daughters could be sold. What seems to be in dispute is whether daughters were owned before being sold from daughterhood into wifehood. It does seem obvious on its face (how can one sell something one doesn't own?), but there are some here who dispute it nonetheless.

Thanks again for bringing it back into better focus.
 
I'd answer "Yes" for a far simpler reason - I could easily jump the neighbour's fence, steal a sheep, and burn it on an altar, thereby sacrificing something I do not own.
I'll dispute that, in that the stolen sheep offered as a 'sacrifice' to one's god represented not one bit of sacrifice on the part of the unholy 'sacrificer.'
 
Let's just see what Pacman says when he gets around to responding. I don't think splitting hairs on the definition of sacrifice will get us any closer to an understanding of daughters and marriage! My example is entirely relevant in the case of Jephthah (even if his daughter didn't belong to him, he was physically capable of sacrificing her unjustly), so relates directly to what I think @Pacman was referring to. But I could be wrong. He was somewhat obscure!
 
What about Psalms 127?

In verse 5 is says:

A) "Behold, children are the Heritage of YHVH".

Pretty direct statement there.

Follows up by saying they are:

B) fruit of the womb and a reward to the mother.

C) Like arrows in a quiver to the father. (Arrows are made to be aimed)

D) And a blessing to people especially over the long term.

That word heritage is interesting, it's similar to ownership but often in scripture it refers to future things - so it's often translated inheritance. Heritage can definitely be given and lost according to how its used as well, and it does happen in scripture.
 
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I'm in agreement with you that many of those 'own' examples you've cited do not connote ownership

The point was simply grammar. "His own town," or "his own family" are identified by the suffix in the Hebrew; they are a pointer (as would be a pronoun, etc) to the thing being talked about. In other words, it's NOT the same kind of 'ownership'. It's a clarifier, an identifier.

...(although, "his own land" and "his own vineyard" would, to me, clearly assert ownership...

Correct. But it's not the grammar that does that, it's the CONTEXT. The grammar identifies WHICH land or vineyard, as opposed to what an English-speaker might construe.

All I was trying to show was that the ownership context, as opposed to the grammar, is NOT in the Bible that way, to answer your question.
 
Moses was not going to leave that prohibition in the background. It makes no sense that he would forbid coveting other men's animals, but not specifically forbid coveting other men's daughters.

I see that last part as referring to objects.

The idea that daughters are property would even approve of incest. I have seen some people who think that it would be incest for the daughter to have relations with her father, but it would not be a sin for the father to initiate relations with his daughter. Read some comments here and you will see:

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....18-forbid-a-man-from-incest-with-his-daughter

There are several perverted men, who twist Moses to practice incest or make his wife commit adultery.
 
The idea that daughters are property would even approve of incest.
There are plenty of perverted people, but this idea isn’t true.
It is a vile accusation to make of men who are trying to walk righteously.

People , women but more so men, have had inappropriate relationships with their animals, but that doesn’t translate into ownership goes with abuse.
 
The idea that daughters are property would even approve of incest. I have seen some people who think that it would be incest for the daughter to have relations with her father, but it would not be a sin for the father to initiate relations with his daughter. Read some comments here and you will see:

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....18-forbid-a-man-from-incest-with-his-daughter

There are several perverted men, who twist Moses to practice incest or make his wife commit adultery.

I even went to the trouble of reading some of the comments, even though it doesn't make one bit of difference what anyone's comments are on a web page. It's not His Word, and His Word is all that matters.

You and anyone else who fails to see the father-daughter prohibition has either missed something or has begun their reading in the wrong place. The near-kin sexual prohibitions begin with Lev. 18:7, but they are an extension of the kin sexual prohibitions introduced in :6: "Not any one of you shall come near any kin of his flesh to expose their nakedness: I am Yahweh." [CVOT]

"[A]ny kin of his flesh" includes any daughter and any son. Period.

Property or not property is irrelevant in regard to sexual prohibitions, as it is with murder. Per Torah, fathers are also prohibited from murdering their daughters.
 
The idea that daughters are property would even approve of incest. I have seen some people who think that it would be incest for the daughter to have relations with her father, but it would not be a sin for the father to initiate relations with his daughter. Read some comments here and you will see:

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....18-forbid-a-man-from-incest-with-his-daughter

There are several perverted men, who twist Moses to practice incest or make his wife commit adultery.
Leviticus 18:17 clearly prohibits it - you can't have sex with a woman and her daughter. That means you cannot have sex with your daughter, as you previously had sex with her mother. It's a clear prohibition. The idea it is not prohibited is a complete misunderstanding by someone who didn't read it fully.

Also, if you've got a Catholic bible lying round, check out Sirach (Ecclesiaticus) 7:24-25:
Hast thou daughters? have a care of their body, and shew not thyself cheerful toward them. Marry thy daughter, and so shalt thou have performed a weighty matter: but give her to a man of understanding.
It's a euphemism but the meaning is clear. Take care of your daughters, but don't show any sexual attraction towards her - if you are tempted in that way marry her off to remove the temptation. That's not law but good advice on how to apply the law to actual life.
 
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