Meat Limits of Christian rules

[HomesteadWife]

I didn't say. I said:



This is opening possibility.


Living with alcoholic sociopath is reason to stay married, especially when husband decides to live with his girlfriend?


How about you read whole text. State of Mississipi by it's own doesn't grant no-fault divorce unless both sides agree. Big part of text is her inability to get divorce because of law.

You are now perfect proof why I said some people don't have regard for real people's life.

You didn't Hardley case, you assumed BS about her, you blind follow Law without asking will her life be better following rules. You just don't care about her.

If her story is correct, there is no way living with sociopath/psihopath is better to person. Only solution is run away.

I didn't say she had to stay with him. I said she could have left at any time. She did not need legal divorce to do so.

I didn't say. I said:



This is opening possibility.


Living with alcoholic sociopath is reason to stay married, especially when husband decides to live with his girlfriend?


How about you read whole text. State of Mississipi by it's own doesn't grant no-fault divorce unless both sides agree. Big part of text is her inability to get divorce because of law.

You are now perfect proof why I said some people don't have regard for real people's life.

You didn't Hardley case, you assumed BS about her, you blind follow Law without asking will her life be better following rules. You just don't care about her.

If her story is correct, there is no way living with sociopath/psihopath is better to person. Only solution is run away.

You are the one projecting onto me. I said she biblically didn't have the right to a divorce.

She both biblically and otherwise has the ability to leave her husband without a biblical divorce attached. Any woman. Can choose to leave her husband for any reason, it is just not often biblical and there are consequences for doing so. Laws nowadays reward women for divorce.

If someone is being physically abused or there is danger to children you can remove yourself from the situation.

Separation is totally different then the legal and biblical reasons for divorce.

 

[steve]

So you telling me to do what I'm already doing.

If that is what you are doing, you are hiding it well.
Your arguments seem to be pushing more the letter of the law than the intent.

 

[steve]

Exodus 31:14-15 says any general work on Sabbath is death penalty.

I asked on what basis we allowed to heal on Sabbath.

It says to do no work. Yeshuah healing the man wasn’t working.

Calling forth healing is the exact opposite of defiling the day. What a silly thing to fuss about.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Didn't say that.


Exodus 31:14-15 says any general work on Sabbath is death penalty.

I asked on what basis we allowed to heal on Sabbath.

In this case the burden of proof is on you to prove that healing on sabbath is work, not mine to prove its not. Yeshua healed on the sabbath. That is enough for me to base my biblical understanding on.

I don't any games. You are so stuck into blindness "Lord's law is perfect" that you are unable to ask obvious questions.

There is ban of being false witness towards neighboord. Is army allowed to deceive enemy? Is police allowed to deceive suspect? Yes or no? If yes, under what circustamces?

If answer no, then military/police work will become way harder. They don't have carve-out from Lord's Law.

This goes back to what I said in one of my prior posts. Choose life. If someone in war or law enforcement has to make a decision to save a life or many lives and there is a lie that seems to be the only option to do so, then the lie is a lesser sin than having blood on your hands.

You are acting like this is something that happens a majority of time. This is an extreme circumstance type of situation and lyingbjis often misused and happens when there may be alternative options. Not telling someone the full truth and withholding some pieces of information is not the same as lying.

Also, false witness is different then generic lying. It is the intentional slander and puttingbdoen of someone's good name or reputation.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Pharaoh ordered them to kill male children. Midwives didn't kill them and then they lied to Pharaoh about always being late.

No way they were always late. Besides, there is no practical difference between killing 5 min old boy and two hours old boy. Killing 2 hours old boy would still be in keeping with spirit of Pharaoh order, but midwives didn't do it.

They could very well have always planned on being late. Also murder is a sin, and it is not a sin to preserve a life rather than follow wrong secular rule. The bible never says they lied. And God chose to reward them for following his law rather than mans.

 

[steve]

Rahab hid the spies and lied about it.
She was spared when they destroyed the city and she was in the lineage of our Savior.
Yah evidently has room for sometimes doing good during deception.

 

[Otto]

@Otto and @Mojo :

There are five popular versions of the Ten Commandments; The Jewish (Talmudic) Tradition, the Augustinian-Lutheran Tradition, the Eastern Orthodox and Reformed Tradition, the Ritual Decalogue, and The Deuteronomic Variation.

Quite obviously God only wrote one version of the Ten Commandments yet vain, self-serving men decided to rewrite what God Himself ordained.

I say this to underline the inescapable fact that some of the "laws" of the Bible are inevitably the creations of men, either in part or in whole. I say this because idjits of the past saw no problem with editing, reinterpreting, or reinventing the ten simple laws that God Himself issued to Moses.

It falls to each of us to discern what is of God and what is of men.

That said, I am certain that both of you have a favored version of the Ten Commandments that you follow. And you have employed your God-given discernment to eschew the rest as less-than the version you prefer. You rejected the laws of men in favor of the laws of God.

Or do you follow every version of the Ten Commandments?

You have the Hebrew Bible, and the Greek Bible. Both bibles have the book of exodus, and the book of Deuteronomy. The Ten Commandments are found in both of those books, and they more or less state the same thing. The differences - if there are any - are nuanced and don’t change the actual meaning.

 

[frederick]

The bible never says they lied.

That point seems to be missed by some posting on this thread, so thank you for stating the obvious for their benefit.

Eisegesis is a frequently occurring problem.

 

[MeganC]

You have the Hebrew Bible, and the Greek Bible. Both bibles have the book of exodus, and the book of Deuteronomy. The Ten Commandments are found in both of those books, and they more or less state the same thing. The differences - if there are any - are nuanced and don’t change the actual meaning.

Right. Even within the pages of the Bible there is no agreement on the exact wording of the Ten Commandments.

Now was that God being inconsistent or were men being inconsistent?

 

[MeganC]

Do any of them differ substantially in substance or contradict one another? They’re not the exact same each time they appear in scripture. They differ slightly without changing the message. It doesn’t describe an Orange in one and a banana in the other.

Similar arguments have been made for the gospels with their supposed contradictions based on perspective and emphasis.

You tell me. Here's a compendium of different versions of the Ten Commandments:

the 10 Commandments | Old Testament | Compare Versions / Translations | Download

We offer many different versions and translations of the TEN COMMANDMENTS as found in Exodus 20:1-17. Study a single Commandment or compare multiple versions / translations of the Commandments - Download a copy of the Ten Commandments

the10commandments.info

Now, are any of them in part or in whole objectionable to you? If so then it makes a difference.

The Catholic version deletes any reference to idols because they absolutely do bow down and worship idols. Now they defend this practice by saying that they venerate their statues of Mary and etc.

Yet the word venerate comes from the Latin word veneratus, which means to worship. They always hate when I point this out to them.

So does it make any difference that the Catholics sliced and diced the Ten Commandments to their liking?

We could get into the version used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, too.

In any case, my point is that even the literal words of God are tortured and twisted by men.

The laws then would be even more subject to such selfishness.

It then necessarily falls to us to discern what is of God and what is of men. If you choose to accept what someone else wrote for you that is, of course, your choice.

 

[MemeFan]

They could very well have always planned on being late. Also murder is a sin, and it is not a sin to preserve a life rather than follow wrong secular rule. The bible never says they lied. And God chose to reward them for following his law rather than mans.

That's impossible to always be late unless they were late for bloody days. Like birth have never taken more time than expected.

Milions of people left Egypt during Exodus which implies Hebrews population must in hundreds of thousands which implies thousands being born every year.

No way there were only midwives for whole population. Those two were probably chief midwives.

Also, being late implies risking mother's and child's lives which is total insanity.

Most probable is lying to Pharaoh combined with writting false data if needed.

 

[MemeFan]

In this case the burden of proof is on you to prove that healing on sabbath is work, not mine to prove its not. Yeshua healed on the sabbath. That is enough for me to base my biblical understanding on.

Yes, you would claim that Jeshua didn't break law. On what basis He didn't?

There is also failure to generalize. If it OK to have exception to general law once, what are other exceptions?

Not telling someone the full truth and withholding some pieces of information is not the same as lying.

Deception is in principle same as lying. Both have as goal to create false sense of situation.

Did you notice that in Star Wars Palpatine never lies? Oohhh, poor me, Jedis have trying to arrest me and do a coup without mentioned real reason why Jedis did.

So he now looks like unlucky victim, instead of person who person who should be removed from power ASAP (real reason of Jedi intervention).

Also, false witness is different then generic lying. It is the intentional slander and puttingbdoen of someone's good name or reputation.

So generic lying is then OK?

So Fauci claiming covid vaccine works is OK? He isn't slandering nobody.

You know, for most of history of Christianity that command was understood as general ban on lying.

 

[MemeFan]

That point seems to be missed by some posting on this thread, so thank you for stating the obvious for their benefit.

Eisegesis is a frequently occurring problem.

But is also doesn't say they didn't lied.

So no info did they lied or not. We have to figure that ourself.

 

[Otto]

Right. Even within the pages of the Bible there is no agreement on the exact wording of the Ten Commandments.

Now was that God being inconsistent or were men being inconsistent?

Here is Exodus 20 in the KJV - which is a pretty faithful English translation from the Hebrew Old Testament:

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - King James Version

And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is...

www.biblegateway.com

Here is Exodus 20 in the Brenton - which is a pretty faithful English translation from the Greek Old Testament:

Exodus 20 Brenton's Septuagint Translation

Those sources (the Hebrew and Greek scriptures) are what the apostles quoted the Scriptures from. They didn’t quote from an orthodox bible or catholic bible. They quoted - usually - from the Scriptures in the Greek (The Septuagint), and Brenton does a faithful job translating the Septuagint into the English.

The Ten Commandments - which is found in Exodus 20 - are identical in meaning between the Hebrew and Greek sources that the apostles used.




There are about 300 quotes found in the New Testament directly quoting from the Greek Septuagint (Greek Old Testament). Most people don’t know Greek, but Brenton’s translation into the English is pretty faithful; just like the KJV is pretty faithful of translating from the Hebrew Old Testament. I have a physical copy of the Greek Old Testament translated by Brenton.

 

[MemeFan]

I didn't say she had to stay with him. I said she could have left at any time. She did not need legal divorce to do so.

You are the one projecting onto me. I said she biblically didn't have the right to a divorce.

She both biblically and otherwise has the ability to leave her husband without a biblical divorce attached. Any woman. Can choose to leave her husband for any reason, it is just not often biblical and there are consequences for doing so. Laws nowadays reward women for divorce.

You are assuming too much. Why would man who has started living with another woman, pay his current wife food and clothing? He didn't try to turn situation into menage a trois, so no chance of biblical polygyny?

Besides, why to stay state married to such man? Car hits her, she finish in coma and now medical decisions about her falls into hands who obviously doesn't care about her.

You aren't thinking about real consequences. Just bible, bible.

There is reason people are leaving church. It's not just the feminism, woke, man hating culture, but it's also people insisting on obviously incorrect advice.

 

[frederick]

But is also doesn't say they didn't lied.

So no info did they lied or not. We have to figure that ourself.

Ok. Why do you then sense the need to look at these women from a position of them sinning? Why not think the best of people rather than the worst?

 

[HomesteadWife]

That's impossible to always be late unless they were late for bloody days. Like birth have never taken more time than expected.

Milions of people left Egypt during Exodus which implies Hebrews population must in hundreds of thousands which implies thousands being born every year.

No way there were only midwives for whole population. Those two were probably chief midwives.

Also, being late implies risking mother's and child's lives which is total insanity.

Most probable is lying to Pharaoh combined with writting false data if needed.

The bible very clearly states when it is noteworthy that people are lying or being deceptive. If you choose to believe that they were sinning/lying I can't convince you otherwise. I choose to believe if it is not written we can't apply sin without evidence.

When you can give me some documentation on your certification on midwife and birthing practices of that time I'll let your conjecture bear more weight than any one elses.

Shalom.

 

[HomesteadWife]

Yes, you would claim that Jeshua didn't break law. On what basis He didn't?

There is also failure to generalize. If it OK to have exception to general law once, what are other exceptions?

The messiah Jesus never sinned. If healing was a sin he could not be the messiah. Period.

Deception is in principle same as lying. Both have as goal to create false sense of situation.

Did you notice that in Star Wars Palpatine never lies? Oohhh, poor me, Jedis have trying to arrest me and do a coup without mentioned real reason why Jedis did.

So he now looks like unlucky victim, instead of person who person who should be removed from power ASAP (real reason of Jedi intervention).

People will choose to believe others who maliciously or not generate a reality to them.
So Palatine did not overtly lie/sin in that regard. We have to be discerning with who/what we believe. If I withhold some information from someone because I choose to even though they can benefit from it I am not committing a sin of lying.

So generic lying is then OK?

So Fauci claiming covid vaccine works is OK? He isn't slandering nobody.

You know, for most of history of Christianity that command was understood as general ban on lying.

I am just saying that the words you were using also have a more explicit meaning. Of course it does mean general lying as well. Lying often hurts others.

Using Fauci is a terrible example. He was explicitly harming others/his neighbor with his lies.

 

[Mojo]

So does it make any difference that the Catholics sliced and diced the Ten Commandments to their liking?

We could get into the version used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, too.

Nice reply. I see your point, but if we already know these trees by their fruit, why would I indulge in either of their preserves?

However, there’s enough manuscript evidence to discredit much of the discrepancies that can be disputed. Are you sure that the Ten Commandments is one of those discrepancies? If there’s a Catholic disagreement with graven images in their scripture, I don’t see it. I see that passage in their English version as:

'You shall have no other gods to rival me. 'You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

Exodus - Chapter 20 - Bible - Catholic Online

1 Then God spoke all these words. He said, 2 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. 3 'You shall have no other gods to rival me.

www.catholic.org

What’s the slicing and dicing you speak of? I would dispute their interpretation of what they do with their little statues, but I can’t see the dispute with their written words.

But, we’re veering off course of the original list, I believe. I will leave it to @MemeFan if he wants to allow this rabbit trail.

 

[MemeFan]

Nice reply. I see your point, but if we already know these trees by their fruit, why would I indulge in either of their preserves?

However, there’s enough manuscript evidence to discredit much of the discrepancies that can be disputed. Are you sure that the Ten Commandments is one of those discrepancies? If there’s a Catholic disagreement with graven images in their scripture, I don’t see it. I see that passage in their English version as:

'You shall have no other gods to rival me. 'You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

Exodus - Chapter 20 - Bible - Catholic Online

1 Then God spoke all these words. He said, 2 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves. 3 'You shall have no other gods to rival me.

www.catholic.org

What’s the slicing and dicing you speak of? I would dispute their interpretation of what they do with their little statues, but I can’t see the dispute with their written words.

But, we’re veering off course of the original list, I believe. I will leave it to @MemeFan if he wants to allow this rabbit trail.

Even if group's fruits are very bad, it doesn't necesarry implies everything they do is wrong. It only implies higher probability that every activity is wrong.

So it's possible to learn something useful from everybody including Satan himself.*

Real issue is how profitable is getting to pure truth without picking also falsehoods.

*Satan can quote Scripture