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Question about slavery in the Bible

It's an important issue to deal with when it is raised as an objection in a theological debate, as it was for @NBTX11. There it is theoretical, but not just something to argue about, it raises issues of how we interpret and apply scripture which are relevant to other issues. So this is a discussion with a practical point.
Maddog said:
If given the opportunity to own a slave, Would you? (General ask of everybody)
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That on the other hand is an entirely pointless question given that slavery is illegal where all of us live, so it would be "a moot point and just something to argue about".
 
FollowingHim said:
It's an important issue to deal with when it is raised as an objection in a theological debate, as it was for @NBTX11. There it is theoretical, but not just something to argue about, it raises issues of how we interpret and apply scripture which are relevant to other issues. So this is a discussion with a practical point.

That on the other hand is an entirely pointless question given that slavery is illegal where all of us live, so it would be "a moot point and just something to argue about".
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Slavery IS illegal, i agree. But then so is polygamy. These are both allowed per scripture but no one is encouraging slavery. Tell me the "PRACTICAL" point. Ought someone start a "biblicalslavery.org" group?
 
Maddog said:
Slavery IS illegal, i agree. But then so is polygamy. These are both allowed per scripture but no one is encouraging slavery. Tell me the "PRACTICAL" point. Ought someone start a "biblicalslavery.org" group?
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I don’t see how you can seriously compare them.

But if you want to start that group I’ll need more popcorn.
 
Maddog said:
Slavery IS illegal, i agree. But then so is polygamy. These are both allowed per scripture but no one is encouraging slavery. Tell me the "PRACTICAL" point. Ought someone start a "biblicalslavery.org" group?
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Polygamy is not illegal, as you know, the state just only allows you to formally register one marriage at a time.

Slavery on the other hand is entirely illegal, and obviously no registration of slaves is permissible at all. This is an entirely different situation.

The debate will however frequently come up with people who make this sort of false equivalence between slavery and polygamy, and need to be discussed theoretically as part of Christian apologetics.
 
FollowingHim said:
Polygamy is not illegal, as you know, the state just only allows you to formally register one marriage at a time.

Slavery on the other hand is entirely illegal, and obviously no registration of slaves is permissible at all. This is an entirely different situation.
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Good points, thanks Samuel. It would be worthwhile to keep this is mind when such a discussion is brought up.
 
Maddog said:
Slavery IS illegal, i agree. But then so is polygamy.
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Wrong. Polygyny is NOT "illegal."

It's just "illegal" to have more than one licensed State-defined 'wife' (of any sex, or multiple genders.) Any doubts, just ask if the First Amendment still applies to you.

Those distinctions matter.

Likewise, only UN-licensed slavery is "illegal." Big Brother (internationally even) always can have all the slaves it wants.
 
Distinctions DO matter. When the interest rate on your credit card is 30% then slavery has assumed a new name. What's in YOUR wallet?
In a few months time frame your new cell phone originally costing $1000 now has consumed $2000 of your budget or more!
 
Words DO matter- Let's say that a Mexican immigrant is super good at agriculture but the pay is substandard to homegrown help: Would you hire that worker knowing full well the quality of his work versus the minuscule pay? That is the modern equivalent of yesterdays slavery. We however provide a small travel trailer to sleep in and a little food prior to payday BUT we say it is not slavery because he is free to leave. he is free to leave INTO nothing so by default he must stay IF he wants to eat. How dare we call that slavery! A rose by a different name is still a rose.
In a related way- indentured servitude is when a person incurs a debt (whether criminal or legal) that he cannot pay immediately but can pay over time for say, 6 years. Then in the seventh year all debts are reduced to nothing as in the year of jubilee or something similar. It becomes a parallel to a 72month payment plan on that new truck. For giggles stop paying at 71 months- what happens? That truck gets repossessed because it isn't YOURS! You can walk away but not with someone elses truck. You "served" but it wasnt yours. Talk about slavery? It is where we are today. We just call it a different name. I am not without fault here- I have 23 more years of slavery. I call that a mortgage.
 
Maddog said:
Words DO matter- Let's say that a Mexican immigrant is super good at agriculture but the pay is substandard to homegrown help: Would you hire that worker knowing full well the quality of his work versus the minuscule pay? That is the modern equivalent of yesterdays slavery. We however provide a small travel trailer to sleep in and a little food prior to payday BUT we say it is not slavery because he is free to leave. he is free to leave INTO nothing so by default he must stay IF he wants to eat. How dare we call that slavery! A rose by a different name is still a rose.
In a related way- indentured servitude is when a person incurs a debt (whether criminal or legal) that he cannot pay immediately but can pay over time for say, 6 years. Then in the seventh year all debts are reduced to nothing as in the year of jubilee or something similar. It becomes a parallel to a 72month payment plan on that new truck. For giggles stop paying at 71 months- what happens? That truck gets repossessed because it isn't YOURS! You can walk away but not with someone elses truck. You "served" but it wasnt yours. Talk about slavery? It is where we are today. We just call it a different name. I am not without fault here- I have 23 more years of slavery. I call that a mortgage.
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Not similar.

Regarding jubilee and indebted servitude, everybody knew about it enabling planning. No way I will give you credit where 20% of amount to be returned will be eliminated by jubilee.

This would create financial system with rather high interest rates favouring very productive investment.

Real issue with indebted servitute comes become debtor can't leave for better position and keep paying his debts. Also, with monopoly position creditor would often treat debtors very badly.

Regarding immigrant, he can substantially improve his position, so he is in way better position.
 
Maddog said:
So if nobody owns a slave, is this a moot point and just something to argue about? If given the opportunity to own a slave, Would you? (General ask of everybody)
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Slavery still exists. Lots of Chinese and North Koreans are used as slaves even in the USA.


I would not own a slave. Can't even begin to wrap my head around that idea.
 
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Maddog said:
OK, Theoretical situation: if there was a young woman that needed a place to live and you had the space, would you allow her to be a live-in nanny or keeper of the home for the room and board(no sex involved)?
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If she free to live? Then she isn't slave.
 
Well if want to be technical about things slavery the way we think of it as in civil war America is even different than what the North Korean’s experience. See North Korean’s can walk around as they please as long as they do what the government says which truly is not much different than what we Americans experienced with Covid lockdowns etc. I’m surprised at the amount of people who gave up freedoms so easily because whatever freedoms you give up you won’t get back easily.
 
@NBTX11, I think the guy asking you this question is kinda missing the point of the Bible.

The Bible isn't chiefly a book of God's rules and laws. It isn't a book of "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth".

It is the Book about God Himself, particularly as expressed in His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Yes,
The average modern person on the street finds polygamy and slavery to be equally reprehensible.

Though it offends modern man, the Bible does not seem to treat either polygamy or slavery/indentured servitude as inherently or fundamentally sinful.

Both can be done sinfully, when men and women fail to properly love God, and therefore also fail to love their neighbors.

The LORD our God is One. Have no god before or beside YAHWEH. Love YAHWEH with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

These statements pretty much sum up the Law. The man who does these things honors God if he is a slave, a slave owner, a single man, a husband of one wife, or the husband of multiple wives.

Absolute love of God, and devotion to Him is the fundamental issue, and Christ Himself is the only Way to get there

Paul dealt with slavery in the epistle of Philemon (and elsewhere). Paul instructed his new Christian brother Onesimus (who was a runaway slave) to return to his master (and now Christian brother) Philemon. Paul instructed Philemon to no longer regard Onesimus as a slave, but rather as a beloved brother in the Lord. Paul elsewhere commanded slaves to serve Christ in the way they served their earthly masters, knowing that Christ was their true Master.

Paul did not require Philemon to terminate the economic relationship with Onesimus. He went far deeper, and said Onesimus is your brother in Christ.

Christ is all in all! He must have the supremacy. We belong to Him.

Honestly, the man who truly believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the man who understands what God in Christ has done for him, the man who freely gives himself as slave to Christ is free indeed.

He is free if he is a slave.
He is free (and also simultaneously a slave to Christ) if he owns a slave. In both cases, being slave to Christ, he is free.
 
Maddog said:
OK, Theoretical situation: if there was a young woman that needed a place to live and you had the space, would you allow her to be a live-in nanny or keeper of the home for the room and board(no sex involved)?
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We've done this. I was one of the young women in question and I lived with the family as a helper/nanny for a few weeks and I got to know the family and they got to know me. And then it came time to decide to be a plural or leave.

Because a young available woman in the house long-term who isn't a plural will end up being a problem.
 
Nannies have those feelings too. I do know of a young mother who was just that for an older couple for years. There was never a problem, she was more of a daughter than anything. I do believe that is the exception though.
 
In my experience, slavery is often offered up as a hammer to hit us with.

But, you do need to face it, not as distraction, but as part of a larger hermaneutic.

Folks who bring up slavery will offer it up under the guise of “old covenant was done away with” or “Christ gave us a new law”.

God does not change. It’s often overlooked, but Paul encouraged a runaway slave named Onesimus to return to his master. He didn’t see a contradiction. But, he did encourage Philemon to accept him back as a Christian brother.

People who bring up slavery try to drive a wedge between the testaments that isn’t really there. It’s made up.

School yourself in the history and distinctiveness of slavery and the biblical application of it. When it comes up, don’t shy away from it, but don’t let it become a rabbit trail either. It’s a diversion tactic. Recognize it.
 
MeganC said:
We've done this. I was one of the young women in question and I lived with the family as a helper/nanny for a few weeks and I got to know the family and they got to know me. And then it came time to decide to be a plural or leave.

Because a young available woman in the house long-term who isn't a plural will end up being a problem.
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Even an unavailable and relatively unattractive woman in the house of another long-term can result in problems.

This can be seen in the case of Arnold Schwarzenegger and his adulterous relationship with his married housekeeper Mildred Baena.

If Arnold had a pretty young single blonde housekeeper, he might have had another five sons instead of just the one.
 
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