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General Victim Mentality

rockfox

rockfox

Seasoned Member
Real Person*
Male
Keith had a good comment about the harmfulness of a victim mentality...

Keith Martin said:
  • The victim posture that is so prevalent in our culture is just about the most insidious characteristic of what progressivism has sowed. Over time, I've learned that people learn almost nothing when they grasp victimhood with a tight fist.
  • Therefore, when someone is posturing themselves as a victim (and one manifestation of victimhood is to expect others to guess what one's problems are), offering assistance is pretty much a complete waste of time. It engages the helper instinct in others, but what I learned from being a psychotherapist is that almost no one in therapy actually has any intention to get anything out of it other than to make themselves feel like they're doing something productive or to make it look like they're trying to change themselves. They do not want to change. They do not want their lives to be transformed. The corollary to this is that almost all therapists are relatively clueless and, in fact, would be more likely to harm their clients than help them if anything substantive were really going on, so it's all a net wash, except that lots of time and money has been wasted. (It does, though, keep a lot of virtue signallers off the street.)
  • This next one is harder for the average person to swallow: the same thing is true when it comes to lay people doing counseling. The main advantage to getting counseling from friends is that less time is usually expended and far less money is thrown down the toilet. However, if your friend (or, say, someone who shows up out of the blue on a forum thread) identifies as a victim, then everything I said in the previous bullet point applies just as significantly. One can feel like one is being helpful, but all evidence points to that nothing of any substance will be accomplished.
  • Therefore, the only truly productive use of one's time (unless one counts looking like a sensitive soul) is to immediately begin assertively promoting the learning of how to take a radically different approach to communicating one's needs, because until the victim-identified person develops a non-victim approach, the world will only continue to be a ridiculously-difficult place to navigate. All one gets as a victim is at-best-mediocre results amidst being enfeebled by people who dance around the distraction, avoidance, denial and subterfuge
When I recognized that all of the above characterizes 95% of what goes on in psychotherapy and social services in general, I could not in good conscience stick around.

Instead, I require of myself that I use what God has freely given me by freely giving it away to people who demonstrate that they truly want it and are going to do something with it. My conscience, therefore, remains clear, and I get the bounteous gift of observing people actually blossoming, without having to wonder if I've been overcharging them.
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I think he's onto a key insight there. One that could lend to new avenues for interacting with the typical struggling women who shows up.

My impression of the typical woman who comes here who reject polygamy and is struggling with her husband about it is she has a victim mindset. And the consequence of that is she is therefor inherently right with no need to change, and no logic about the issues involved will change that. No amount of logic about vows or the sinlessness of polygamy will change her feelings; she just sees him as the aggressor changing the situation she was just peachy fine with that they'd agreed to.

So I have three major questions to start us off...

First to Keith (or anyone else)...say a woman shows up here saying something to the effect of "my husband is turning our life upside down by adding/wanting to add a second wife" How do you think we should get her out of the victim mentality? And do you think doing that would lead to her overcoming a stubborn refusal to assent to polygamy?

Second to women here...did any of you come into the idea of polygamy feeling like a victim? If so, how did you overcome it? What affect did overcoming it have?

And third...what can our wives do, who are on board with poly and headship or whatever, do to protect themselves from allowing the victim mentality to creep in and poison their thinking? Especially as conflict rises with sisterwives entering the picture and causing them to doubt this change.
 
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Excellent questions @rockfox, thanks for this. I'll let others answer it before I try. I've just removed the "support" tag from the thread because this isn't a real-life situation.
 
For me, plural rocked my world. I have never been so hurt and broken by anything in my life. I definitely came on to this site desperately searching for answers as well as hoping I could find proof it was a cult. I had the victim mentality and could not fathom why my husband (who claimed he loved me) would try to hurt me so deeply. At the time, I felt like it was a justification for him just wanting to sleep with someone else and I wasn’t who he wanted to be with anymore- this was just a way around it to so he didn’t feel “guilty.”

In those early emotions, there is nothing that any man on this site could say to me directly that would have changed my victim mindset. You could have spouted all the scriptures and logical responses you wanted. It didn’t matter.. All of you men agreed that it is biblically ok to have more than one wife. You were all part of the problem (in my mind).

The women on the other hand, depending on who I talked to or read about, were the ones that either helped or hurt my point of view even more. Women like @julieb, who had walked the walk and submitted to her husband with grace and has made it through all of these years, brought me hope. Ladies who spouted underlying feministic mentalities, brought up more fear and helped to prolong my poor little victim heart.

I applaud the men that take a stand in confronting the underlying feminist posts. Even if it doesn’t change that specific woman’s mindset at the time, it is beneficial for future women reading (IMO). We, women, are emotionally driven and will naturally gravitate towards getting our emotions coddled and other women tend to be the best at that. We are nurturing and don’t want others to feel uncomfortable.. however avoiding the underlying issues of feminism and supporting a wife not needing to submit is detrimental to a wife being able to work through the concept of plural. I scoured the forum looking for ways that I didn’t need to let me husband move forward in the life. However, reading through and seeing how my mindset was wrong due to the responses pointing back to scripture, helped me grow. If there was no correction on issues like submission, I would have kept running with the idea that I was a victim and I could pull the trump card on my husband. Just like any modern church would tell me.

Even though he was not running into plural, and was very patient with me, I still felt he had a biased opinion and it was only because it was something he wanted. God had to break down my wall and help me to surrender to it. I knew that he would follow God no matter what, and it was my choice if I would follow him or rebel against him and God. There came a lightbulb moment where I understood my husband’s heart behind it.

The support of other wives that have gone through it, and wives that are in the process of going through it that are submitted to their husband- those friendships are priceless. No one in my circle understands the struggles I’ve faced. I can’t talk to anyone aside from the ladies I’ve met from here. The emotions are up and down, but they get it, they encourage to look past the current pain to an end goal.

How does one get past the victim mindset? She has to allow herself to let God have control, or she never will and she will burn down the house with her and take the dog.
 
WifeOfHisYouth said:
me, plural rocked my world. I have never been so hurt and broken by anything in my life. I definitely came on to this site desperately searching for answers as well as hoping I could find proof it was a cult. I had the victim mentality and could not fathom why my husband (who claimed he loved me) would try to hurt me so deeply.
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Thank you so very much. Thank you, thank you, and thank you again for your open and honest response.
 
WifeOfHisYouth said:
For me, plural rocked my world. I have never been so hurt and broken by anything in my life. I definitely came on to this site desperately searching for answers as well as hoping I could find proof it was a cult. I had the victim mentality and could not fathom why my husband (who claimed he loved me) would try to hurt me so deeply. At the time, I felt like it was a justification for him just wanting to sleep with someone else and I wasn’t who he wanted to be with anymore- this was just a way around it to so he didn’t feel “guilty.”

In those early emotions, there is nothing that any man on this site could say to me directly that would have changed my victim mindset. You could have spouted all the scriptures and logical responses you wanted. It didn’t matter.. All of you men agreed that it is biblically ok to have more than one wife. You were all part of the problem (in my mind).

The women on the other hand, depending on who I talked to or read about, were the ones that either helped or hurt my point of view even more. Women like @julieb, who had walked the walk and submitted to her husband with grace and has made it through all of these years, brought me hope. Ladies who spouted underlying feministic mentalities, brought up more fear and helped to prolong my poor little victim heart.

I applaud the men that take a stand in confronting the underlying feminist posts. Even if it doesn’t change that specific woman’s mindset at the time, it is beneficial for future women reading (IMO). We, women, are emotionally driven and will naturally gravitate towards getting our emotions coddled and other women tend to be the best at that. We are nurturing and don’t want others to feel uncomfortable.. however avoiding the underlying issues of feminism and supporting a wife not needing to submit is detrimental to a wife being able to work through the concept of plural. I scoured the forum looking for ways that I didn’t need to let me husband move forward in the life. However, reading through and seeing how my mindset was wrong due to the responses pointing back to scripture, helped me grow. If there was no correction on issues like submission, I would have kept running with the idea that I was a victim and I could pull the trump card on my husband. Just like any modern church would tell me.

Even though he was not running into plural, and was very patient with me, I still felt he had a biased opinion and it was only because it was something he wanted. God had to break down my wall and help me to surrender to it. I knew that he would follow God no matter what, and it was my choice if I would follow him or rebel against him and God. There came a lightbulb moment where I understood my husband’s heart behind it.

The support of other wives that have gone through it, and wives that are in the process of going through it that are submitted to their husband- those friendships are priceless. No one in my circle understands the struggles I’ve faced. I can’t talk to anyone aside from the ladies I’ve met from here. The emotions are up and down, but they get it, they encourage to look past the current pain to an end goal.

How does one get past the victim mindset? She has to allow herself to let God have control, or she never will and she will burn down the house with her and take the dog.
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Awesome!
Samuel, can we get another 100 likes out of the bank and give them to her? She soo deserves them.
I know, it would put me below 7,000, but I will struggle through somehow.....
 
rockfox said:
First to Keith (or anyone else)...say a woman shows up here saying something to the effect of "my husband is turning our life upside down by adding/wanting to add a second wife" How do you think we should get her out of the victim mentality? And do you think doing that would lead to her overcoming a stubborn refusal to assent to polygamy?

Second to women here...did any of you come into the idea of polygamy feeling like a victim? If so, how did you overcome it? What affect did overcoming it have?
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Also it might be beneficial to identify if someone is enabling the victimhood mentality. I've met some men and women that when I explained that Polygyny wasn't a sin there first response was how could you do that to your wife. This usally came from people who either struggled with submission, fidelity, or lack of confidence (I'd say in the Lord, rather than self) that one can live a scripture based life. If there is someone enabling victimhood, it's like someone enabling a drug addict, as long as they are influencing, the problem will persist.
 
I think it makes a difference in how it's brought up and the 'attitude,' for lack of a better word, of their husband. @WifeOfHisYouth hinted at it, stating that her husband was very patient with her. I believe that patience is key with talking about such a big change in a family dynamic.

From my husband, patience, understanding, kindness and reassurance of his love for me, have been key in my acceptance process.

I also want to reiterate @WifeOfHisYouth 's point about the fellowship from the women. I'd also like to add, that being able to take a glimpse into what life may be like, and seeing submission in action, has been helpful as well.

I want to bring up the idea of maybe the men can best help the women by helping the woman's husband...
 
WifeOfHisYouth said:
In those early emotions, there is nothing that any man on this site could say to me directly that would have changed my victim mindset. You could have spouted all the scriptures and logical responses you wanted. It didn’t matter.. All of you men agreed that it is biblically ok to have more than one wife. You were all part of the problem (in my mind).
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Thanks! I'm hoping more women will contribute their experience here (even if exactly the same), this is exactly what I was looking for!

I think often that responding to someone feeling that way with theology about polygamy isn't going to change someones mind, at least not at the first, about poly (note, I'm not saying we shouldn't either). I'm more thinking about speaking directly to their victim mindset.

So something along the lines...

her: he's ruining my life by bringing another woman into the house

respondent: I know this feels horrible right now. But maybe God means it for good? How can you make lemonade of this situation? 'for better or worse' but life goes on, what is so bad exactly about having someone to help out more around the house?

Now that could be a perfectly horrible response, I'm just trying to brainstorm a possible non-theology response that speaks direct to the victim mindset rather than simply trying to convince her that poly is perfectly fine and she's wrong to feel otherwise.
 
rockfox said:
I'm just trying to brainstorm a possible non-theology response that speaks direct to the victim mindset rather than simply trying to convince her that poly is perfectly fine and she's wrong to feel otherwise.
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There was no reasoning that would have worked for me. I was being taught it wasn’t scripturally wrong, I was researching and looking into it. I knew that it wasn’t “wrong” but I didn’t want it to be “right” for us. It was emotional. I had to feel it. I needed to walk through it to process the emotions. I couldn’t see the benefits, I only saw the losses.
I moved from the victim mindset over time, but went into mourning. I had to mourn the loss of everything I thought my marriage was currently, was going to be in the future, and what life looked like as a whole. It took my husband’s patience and tenderness to help me see beyond. Had he just jumped in and took the first gal that came his way because he could, I would have had a harder time working beyond the victim mentality or my mourning. Had he not been patient in his responses and working though my circular conversations, 8 million times over, I would not have been able grow to where I am in knowing his heart. Yes, we still have some of the same conversations on some topics and he lovingly explains again. Not because he has to, but because he loves me.

I went through the plural stages of grief: this was the order in which I had to work through the emotions in my own life.

Denial- “No, he couldn’t really want this!” “Don’t I have enough emotions for him already? Why would he want more women and their emotions too?”
Depression- “my life is over” “is life even worth living if he has another wife” “I’m not needed” “he wouldn’t miss me if I was gone” “he couldn’t possible love me still”
If Only- “if only I had been better in satisfying him..” “if only I had been a better wife” “if only God never revealed this to him” “why us?”
Anger- “how could he put me though this” “how selfish is he” “it’s only about his sexual needs” “who did he think he is” “why would God do this?”
Acceptance- “he does still love me and want me here with him, even if he loves someone else too.” “There can be blessings from this journey and life” “where you go, I will follow” “I see his heart”

And sometimes you make it to step 3 and start over again. Or to step 5 and fall back to step 2. Just because a wife says she “biblically agrees it’s not ‘wrong’” does NOT mean she has made it to the acceptance step in the emotional process. Those are two different areas in her life and she has to choose to work on both.

You, the husband, hold the key in how this journey goes for a wife and how she works through those steps.
 
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WifeOfHisYouth said:
There was no reasoning that would have worked for me. I was being taught it wasn’t scripturally wrong, I was researching and looking into it. I knew that it wasn’t “wrong” but I didn’t want it to be “right” for us. It was emotional. I had to feel it. I needed to walk through it process the emotions. I couldn’t see the benefits, I only saw the losses.
I moved from the victim mindset over time, but went into mourning. I had to mourn the loss of everything I thought my marriage was currently, was going to be in the future, and what life looked like as a whole. It took my husband’s patience and tenderness to help me see beyond. Had he just jumped in and took the first gal that came his way because he could, I would have had a harder time working beyond the victim mentality or my mourning. Had he not been patient in his responses and working though my circular conversations, 8 million times over, I would not have been able grow to where I am in knowing his heart. Yes, we still have some of the same conversations on some topics and he lovingly explains again. Not because he has to, but because he loves me.

You, the husband, hold the key in how this journey goes for a wife and how she works through those steps.
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You said this SO well!!!
I absolutely believe the husband’s hold the key!!!
I know exactly what you are saying and have experienced. I think I’ve gone through the exact same things!!! I sometimes hit the anger part again. Especially when I see families where the wives tolerate each other. There’s not unity.
I DO NOT WANT THAT LIFE!! Until recently I see there’s a happy or different light at the end of the tunnel, if PM does become part of our family’s life.
 
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Verifyveritas76 said:
There may be another phase as well. Embracing. Which may lead to Advocacy.

I can’t speak to that as we’re not there yet.
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I’m not there yet, so it could have additional steps added. I think it would be interesting to see what order of steps other wives have experienced.
 
rockfox said:
I think often that responding to someone feeling that way with theology about polygamy isn't going to change someones mind, at least not at the first, about poly (note, I'm not saying we shouldn't either). I'm more thinking about speaking directly to their victim mindset.

So something along the lines...

her: he's ruining my life by bringing another woman into the house

respondent: I know this feels horrible right now. But maybe God means it for good? How can you make lemonade of this situation? 'for better or worse' but life goes on, what is so bad exactly about having someone to help out more around the house?

Now that could be a perfectly horrible response, I'm just trying to brainstorm a possible non-theology response that speaks direct to the victim mindset rather than simply trying to convince her that poly is perfectly fine and she's wrong to feel otherwise.
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At first I wasn't quite sure what you were looking for us to share about but now I think I do.. maybe? lol. I guess I didn't really see it as speaking to the victim mindset, since I generally don't try to convince people of theology - and more just try to comfort them with things that have comforted me in the past. I think poly is just one of many different storms that people go through and not all storms are the same so unless someone is asking me specifically if something is Biblical or not I usually don't discuss theology. What I do get a lot of is women who are having a hard time. And all their situations are different but my instinct is to tell them "I know what it's like to be where you are. This hard time you are having - I've been there too. That hole you feel like your in and it's dark and you are overwhelmed - I've been there too. Maybe in a different storm then the one you are going through - but this season it will end. You are going through it for a reason. God is faithful." And the share with the a situation that I've gone through that can relate their pain to, and encourage them to believe that He does hear and He will save you from this storm, if you just keep trusting and obeying. Something to me that is along the lines of 2 Cor 1:3,4 : "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God." That's generally how I try to help people, by trying to empathize with them. I've also told people about how whenever Slumber and I disagree on something and neither one of us is moving on it - I bring it before God asking that God will change one of our minds because one of us needs to think differently about the issue but keeping in mind that it very well may be my mind that needs to change. I believe firmly that arguing one's husband out of poly (or anything else!) is a fool's errand and the best way to come to an agreement is to allow the Lord to be the one to changes minds - and making sure you are open to it being your mind that needs changing.
 
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Thanks @RainyLondonFog that is wonderful.

I can recall times with my wife when she'd ask me a question in her struggles about poly. She'd hear the straightforward response, and understand it was right, but it didn't really help her. Not that she rejected it, but it didn't help. The logic of the question was merely the medium through which the emotion was communicated. Logic, theology, etc wasn't what it was about. Talking with other women here helped a lot in those situations.
 
Emotion and logic are not connected. Thats why this journey is so hard for most. I have often said, “I understand logically that you aren’t abandoning me, but emotionally I feel like you are.”
 
WifeOfHisYouth said:
Emotion and logic are not connected. Thats why this journey is so hard for most. I have often said, “I understand logically that you aren’t abandoning me, but emotionally I feel like you are.”
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Ok so serious question (if you don't mind me picking apart your brain, if you do then you don't have to answer)... I'm trying to relate the emotion thing to the victim thing. Thing happens -> negative emotions -> feel like a victim. No logic necessary for that to occur. But does that chain of mental events happen for everything bad? Like, do you feel like a victim if it rains outside the day you had a play date scheduled?
 
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