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Top Down or Bottom Up - Making Biblical Marriage Work

Y

ylop

Member
Real Person*
Here are my simplified choices for a framework of biblical marriage:

1. Top Down - develop the biblically correct theory of marriage, design all the rules, protocols, systems, etc; then go looking for women willing to fit into that mould. Or should I say squeeze into that mould. Or rather, attempt to squeeze into that mould and then pop back out.

Or

2. Bottom Up - a more pragmatic, trial and error approach. Within a very broad biblical framework, work out marriages based on what real-life women will actually be prepared to do.

Because we live in the West, the women are educated and have had 50 years of feminist indoctrination (actually so have the men), and are simply not going to agree to don prairie dresses and sit silent until spoken to.

And yes for those who are asking, I still havent got even any remote suspects identified as possible #2 (let alone 3, 4 and 5). So yes this post is borne out of frustration.

But it is a sensible reaction I think to the circumstances we are in. To put it another way, I would rather start a biblical family and have a bit of a rocky road for a while, rather than be aged 65 and still complaining about how no women will go for it.

I mean we have had all the theoretical arguments squared away for quite some time now.

What we really need are more real people living the lifestyle. We dont really need much more theorising.

So, top down or bottom up?

Discussions, deliberations and denouncements...

ylop

ps thanks to donnag for getting me thinking about this topic.
 
I'm not sure it is either.

I think the issue has to do with men who are not missions minded. A man who is serious about the Great Commission and seeking out those who are lost will make friends with many people, even ladies, who all who need the gospel. As this relationship develops there will be a natural draw or tendency for some of those ladies to be attracted to the man and since the natural discipleship relationship is already existing the union is developing in more of a natural sense.

Does feminism exist? Certainly but that is where gospel centered relationships are instrumental. A man who is mature will be dedicated to the mission of Christ first and foremost in seeking out the lost and then the other needs will fall in place if he is dedicated to that.

So I'm not sure it is the the goal to go "find" a woman. I think the goal is to go forth sowing the seeds of the gospel and truth and in that process of making disciples there comes with it secondary benefits of adding to oneself other members who can be an aid to that process.

The two main covenants of the Bible hinge upon this idea. In the OC it is take dominion over the earth and subdue it, and in the NC it is done through the gospel of Christ by the great commission of discipleship.

I'm not sure where or how that would fit the top down or bottom idea. It might fit in some way or another but the real issue is not about finding a woman but being busy for the gospel and in that process of discipleship being willing to add more to one's family in order to be more effective in that process. I hear men all the time talking about how they cannot find a woman. I always ask, how serious are you to seeking out the lost? Most of the time I have seen the men who can't find a woman too are the men who cry very little, hurt very little, pray very little, and seek very little for the lost souls whom Christ came to save.

I then ask these men: If you are not concerned about adding to God's family why do you think he should be concerned about adding to your family? What makes you think he should answer your prayer to give a woman when you're not even seeking to live out his primary desire for the Great Commission?

Some men then give a lot of lame excuses as to why it will not work and so far it is just that, excuses being used to cover the cloud their laziness or lack of skill in spreading the gospel and being gospel centered for the Great Commission. If the religious women don't desire the Judeo-Christian family lifestyle then see if they rightly understand the gospel. If they do and still reject it move along and go find others in the pagan fields who need to hear the gospel and get discipleship in the biblical sense from the foundation. Yes it will take time, maybe even years but Jacob waited on Rachel for many years in the OT and it is that kind of patient men need when doing the work of the gospel. Yeah it is even that type of patience needed if a union is formed as well because relationships are tough and they take patience. A man not mature enough to wait in patience as he does the work of the Great Commission in discipleship will not be a patient man in a union.

But beware, even pagans can see through a facade. A man who is pretending to be about the gospel in order just to find a woman will be exposed. People can sense rather you love them for who they are, a creation of the Lord who is in need of Christ, or if you merely using them as a means unto the end. This is why the work of the gospel separates the real men from the immature men who still need discipleship themselves. The work of the gospel has a way of exposing the skills of a man.

So it all as I understand the Bible boils down the gospel. Men who do not love the Great Commission yet are seeking a woman have got their ideas backwards. If their heart is foremost sold out to the work of the mission for Christ did he not promise to provide for every need if they are truly seeking his kingdom (see Matthew 6:33)?

Thousands of men and ladies are broken, ruined, on their way to hell, destitute, roaming around in bars looking for peace, working at jobs and finding they are still broke spiritually as well as physically. Their greatest need is gospel centered men who eager and passionate about the gospel and who will take the necessary time to love them into the truth.
 
Very good post Dr. Allen.

I am a little concerned by the idea of Polygamy being an end goal. 'I want this, I deserve this, when is it going to happen'???

It leads to the idea of wives as an entitlement and they are not, no more than a first wife is.

And Ylop, what is wrong with being 65 and marrying a second wife then? If it takes that long it takes that long. There are actually a greater amount of single women in that age range anyway or is this a matter of having certain expectations of Polygamy that might be unrealistic?

Examine why you are frustrated by this and then examine your motives for PM.

Bels
 
Great to see some discussion here, hopefully it will further the cause.

My hope and motivation for the post is to see some ACTION here because there is an awful lot of TALKING and hardly anyone actually having more than one wife.

It is certainly true to talk of the importance of the great commission; however we still live our lives in the world. We choose how to eat, drink and be merry in our own way.

Most of us choose to marry. It is entirely normal and human to do this. I put it to you that the extensive talk about the priority of the great commission is to an extent, over-analyzing.

Did you really go through all this analysis before selecting your first spouse?

How pure were the motives of any of us in any endeavour? Finding a wife? Sex drive comes into that. Choosing a job? Pay rate is a big part of it. Selecting a church to be part of? Proximity to home is a major influence. I salute all the paragons of virtue that ignore all these factors and more and make all their life decisions based on the great commission.

As for me, since you asked Isabella, I am an empire builder. I like to work hard and be the best at everything I do, I am extremely competitive, and I can handle pressure and isolation if necessary to achieve a goal. That is just me. I am not satisfied with one wife and the number of children I have. I will keep pushing forward until I have achieved more. I have the capacity and know I can handle it. Maybe I will be humbled of that assumption, but I will go for it regardless and pick up and keep going. In a broader way, that is how human progress is made. Some people are like that, while others are content just to do their job, get the occasional promotion, retire comfortably. Nothing wrong with that approach, it is much less stressful and probably better for family life, but it is not me. Because others in human history have had similar drive, I am typing on a computer and not moving beads on an abacus. I have a brick house instead of a grass hut. I drive a car and not a cart. That is my motivation, since you asked. And as for waiting until 65, I have a bias towards ACTION and like to make things happen. So many times I talk with people in business who know what to do, and even tell me how to make money in certain ventures, but they don't do it themselves. If I come across a good idea, like biblical families, once I have convinced myself of the concept, I want to implement it.

But I go back to my original post, where I favour the bottom up approach, from a very broad biblical framework, to meet people where they are at.

In other words, polygamy was made for humans, and not humans for polygamy.

ylop
 
I put it to you that the extensive talk about the priority of the great commission is to an extent, over-analyzing.Did you really go through all this analysis before selecting your first spouse?
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That is the point to be exact. The reason many are doing more theorizing and less practice is because so many are not actually practicing the art of living out the gospel. Men can find women if they are working the fields with the gospel. This is not a theory for me and is indeed how I stumbled by providence into my current blessing.

If men would get their hearts right and get serious about lost people whose lives are broken and begin to love people like Christ with a broken heart that wants to see them come to know Christ these other things would fall in place. It is exactly this lack of gospel centered love and lifestyle being lived that men are unable to actually make a difference in the lives of others. Men who can't make one disciple in Christ or share the gospel with others through the art of social and mental skills are men who are too immature to be attractive to ladies. A lady is designed by God and thus a lady will be drawn to men who are laboring in the Word to spread the word. God designed them that way.

It is very practical too. A man who is serious about the gospel will seek to meet strangers, men or women, and see if he can befriend them. This is what Proverbs says in 11:30. A wise man will befriend and capture the heart and mind of another and seek to learn as he goes to answer questions of the person who is lost. As this process unfolds the man will learn himself in order to serve another. This is the gospel being lived out on a daily basis in the real practical world, and in that process a man at times will meet ladies who he will be blessed with the opportunity to disciple as well.

Did I go through all of that? If you mean did I and do I dedicate myself to the art of sharing the gospel and the Word as I seek to draw people into discipleship, then yes absolutely and that ought to be the goal and drive of every man, i.e. if the man truly is in love with Christ.
 
Hi Dr Allen. Those are good points you raise and I don't disagree with them. They certainly outline one way of many that people have and can use to both spread the Gospel and build their family.

However I think it is a mistake to universalise one's own experience to all other people everywhere.

In the Bible we see a wide range of motivations for marriage and methods for obtaining a spouse. I mean, I recall one fellow motivated to take a wife in part possibly because he missed his mother. And then an employee went out on a recruitment drive on his behalf.

Would anyone else like to respond to the original post?

ylop
 
Thank you ylop for responding. Personally, I can't think of anything worse than being in a marriage in which the husband says he is not satisfied....perhaps it is that dissatisfaction and desperation that turns single women off?

B
 
Hello Ylop and Dr. Allen,

Question about your original post and Dr. Allen's response: How do you balance "bottom up" and "great commision work" and "loving even the pagan for Jesus" with the warning not be unequally yoked. Do you think that it is also important to be careful about the union with someone who doesn't believe as you do. I know a family on here where the wife was a pagan when she first met her christian husband. He was real patient with her. She is a great christian woman today who I like and admire. Buuuut- it won't always turn out this way. What do you say about this. How careful should people be.
 
option 2 for me. i just am not enough of an organizer for option 1 :D

as far as not being completely satisfied with the wife and children that i have, i see it as no different than a woman who desires more children. should her children feel rejected? i tell people that i enjoy my wife so much that i am greedy and want more! ;)

loving the pagans? of course, i just do not use it as a strategy.
 
How do you balance "bottom up" and "great commision work" and "loving even the pagan for Jesus" with the warning not be unequally yoked. Do you think that it is also important to be careful about the union with someone who doesn't believe as you do.
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As brother Pastor Whitten would say, "the man must have good character." If the woman is not born again or claims to be but does not have any fruit then the man must not take her unto himself and join her in a union.

This is where the man must display the fruit of the Spirit and be self-controlled, disciplined, and patient. If he is those things he will be lead her as far as the Spirit takes the woman but will not past the Spirit if she is not born again. An immature man or a man who is childish would likely be controlled by passion more so than by the Lord and thus such men would not be ready to engage any the work of seeking any woman until they mature.
 
steve said:
as far as not being completely satisfied with the wife and children that i have, i see it as no different than a woman who desires more children. should her children feel rejected? i tell people that i enjoy my wife so much that i am greedy and want more! ;)

.
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That is a good point Steve but I don't know it still sits badly with me, wanting more and enjoying the idea of having more is one thing but being frustrated and dissatisfied because you don't have it.....it is a mindset thing.

B
 
Isabella said:
steve said:
as far as not being completely satisfied with the wife and children that i have, i see it as no different than a woman who desires more children. should her children feel rejected? i tell people that i enjoy my wife so much that i am greedy and want more! ;)

.
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That is a good point Steve but I don't know it still sits badly with me, wanting more and enjoying the idea of having more is one thing but being frustrated and dissatisfied because you don't have it.....it is a mindset thing.

B
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I agree with this but tell that to the mothers and couples who spend billions every year (as a group) on extensive, invasive fertility treatments! no one calls them immature, selfish, etc. though some of them actually are.
 
Ylop, please do not take me being contentious here as that is not the spirit here at all. But I think there is till more to it than just "a way among many." And that still is my point where I think men are missing it. Many indeed see life in that way, as disjointed and without a chief aim or focus. They look at something like that and think in relativistic terms and by doing so excuse themselves of the weight of the message. Know that I'm not trying to be contentious but ponder it in this light.

Every thing, all things, universally in all places and all times the doctrine of love flows from the gospel, i.e. the good news of God's love for us in Christ. Thus when you say:

one way of many ways
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that is still not the right point or our goal unless; to have the right goal and motive we must root all of the other ways in the gospel itself. Once we become a child of God everything we do is to be done for God's glory, even in the search of a mate. Paul even at one place said it this way: "I endure all things for the sake of the elect that they may too obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory" (2 Tim. 2:10).

Part of taking a woman underneath the headship covering is about God's glory of grace being spread over and unto the woman. Even in regard to the male gender when a man takes another man under his wing to mentor and disciple it is the headship covering of the Lord working in and through that man over the other man.There is a redemptive element that men ought to see and recognize about all things they do and touch and embark upon. Parenting a child is redemptive in that it is covering and protecting the child which is a form of grace or goodness. Even in discipline it is a form of goodness and love being spread to that child.

All of this points back to the gospel, i.e. the goodness and graciousness of God being spread to others through our efforts and actions.

This all points back to the gospel, i.e. the good news of the grace and reconciliation message that comes to us through the gospel.

Thus there are not many goals and reasons but one single goal and reason. Now if we are talking about manifestations of the good news it shows itself in different places through different means but the goal, the chief motive, the chief aim is about the goodness and glory of the Lord spreading to another. A covenant union with a woman is just that, a redemptive or gracious or a portion of God's goodness being shared with a woman. Thus the goal is ONLY one, not many, and that single overarching, solitary chief aim is to spread the glory of the Lord's grace to those whom are drawn unto us by providence and that includes at times women who at times will become disciples of the mission with us.

And this is at the root the largest problem with men today. They do not have a chief aim, a solitary, key, fundamental, main emphasis that all things in their life revolves around. Too many men today do not truly with their hearts and heads see themselves as on a gospel centered mission of life.

Why should one work? So the gospel of the Lord's glory can spread throug our resources we earn.

Why should one eat? So he can have energy to spread the glory and goodness of the Lord.

Why should one exercise? So he can have a better life and be a better steward of the body the Lord has given him so he can spread the glory of the Lord through that body.

Why should one take another woman to himself? So he can spread the glory of grace and goodness of the Lord to that woman and any subsequent offspring.

Why should a man have sexual relations with a woman? Because in doing so he enjoy the gift of God as well is a gift of grace and God's glory to another.

Why should we be good stewards of creation? Because in doing so we reveal the goodness and graciousness of the Lord God in and through our efforts restoring and restraining the curse of sin that seeks to destroy creation.

Why should we befriend others? Because by doing so we can share love, grace, God's goodness to them as we spread his love to them through our acts being a friend.

Every decision and every act for the believer, if the believer is serious about his calling, will be to spread the Lord's glory and fragrance to another. Paul also said it that through "us God spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life" (2 Cor. 14-16).

Every place and every act we endeavor upon is about Christ and his fragrance of glory and grace and goodness being spread through us to those we meet and come into contact with.

And thus back to the point, we should not be seeing the Great Commission as just one of many ways or motives towards a woman. No, we should rather be seeing every element of life, every move of life, every choice of life as gospel centered, as an element of the chief aim of life which is to spread the fragrance, the glory, the goodness the grace of God to others, and in that process if it means to a woman than great. Even down to our anatomical structure we are to use our very bodies as tools unto the chief end of spreading the love and grace of the Lord to another.

As Paul said, "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it ALL for the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31). Forming a union with a woman must about spreading God;s glory to her as we build the relationship for God's glory.

Thus, what I respectfully trying to suggest here is that the problem is the disjointed ideas that men have in their minds. Too many have compartmentalized their life into sections and spheres in such a way they no longer see every act about the gospel. The very sexual act itself is about the glory of God and the gospel. If there were no grace then we would have no joy, no sexual pleasure, no body parts to even grace one another with as sin would overtake us and we would be destroyed and utterly in ruin without the wonderful, amazing, and remarkable glory of grace of God that is so good to us by giving to us such ability and body parts to be even able to join with a woman in order to grace her with God's grace and goodness.

There is not a segmented life but one life with one root and one purpose, and all things we do, if we are in step with the Spirit, will be seen in that light. My speech to another, my lovemaking to a woman, my work ethic in business, my physical body and exercise program, my mental acuity, my knowledge of the Word, my social life, all of it will be rooted and baptized under one mission: to spread the glory of God's goodness to others as I use all of my gifts to serve. As Christ said of himself, "I did not come to be served but to serve and give my life as a ransom for many." That is the gospel centered life motive and chief aim in all things, even in the efforts to love a woman. Spreading the goodness of God to her is rooted in the gospel and every goal for a union in all cases in all places at all times ought to arise from this heart.

Granted, none of us live up to this all the time. But that is the universal goal that we all are to strive after if we truly love Christ and believe we are his ambassadors to this world.

Again, I hope you do not take this as me being too technical or contentious as that is not the point. But my point is indeed that the problems we have is because we do not have this focus in enough men. I suppose it is therefore a bottom down approach because it flows from God the Father to God the Son to God the Spirit who applies the work to the man who goes forth on a mission to make disciples by spreading the fragrance of the Lord's goodness to all people. It is a singular, solitary, and splendid mission that sees all of life as being lived for the head, the Savior.
 
wanting more and enjoying the idea of having more is one thing but being frustrated and dissatisfied because you don't have it.....it is a mindset thing.
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i understand, sometimes things get overstated although often it is hard to be patient once a decision has been made. :)
but the reality is that all impatience is a complaint against He-Who-Could-Change it. ;)
 
all impatience is a complaint against He-Who-Could-Change it.
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Great point as in the faith there is the doctrine of God being omnipotent and omniscient. He has all the answers and all the power necessary by providence to accomplish whatever the need is. Our impatience is a a sign of lack of faith.
 
After a painful breakup with a lady I really loved (love still), I was resigned to leaving relationships with the Lord and focusing on serving Him. Within one year (1966), while on church visitation, I met the wonderful lady who would become my wife. I tell people that, "visitation pays".

At a missions conference, a man from the island of Ponape, told us of his conversion through the ministry of an American service man on Guam. He then went to Prairie Bible Institute, followed by returning home to evangelize his city (as a single man). At the end of one year he baptized over 100 people, one of whom became his wife. They are still together after 30+ years.

As to choosing or recommending method 1 or method 2, I would choose another option. I don't see the benefit of restricting our efforts to either specific course. I am personally convinced that the biggest hindrance to accomplishing Biblical, Christian, plural marriage is our lack of or unwillingness to be fully sold out to God. Too often, I hear men and women lamenting their lack of success and displaying a measure of dissatisfaction in God's performance on their behalf. Where is our joy and peace with God? Ought we not to resign ourselves to joyfully accept God's provision for us and give Him the praise and thanks due Him as Lord? Matthew 6:33 is quite complete on this issue,
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you."
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When we put Him first, He is free to provide for us, that which He in His infinite wisdom and grace, knows is good for us. Remember Garth Brooks' song, "Some of God's Greatest Gifts Are Unanswered prayers"?

Let us not make plural marriage our main goal. Let us serve God with our whole heart and therefore make us more worthy of a spouse. Let God give that which He desires for us, that we may do it well.
 
Wonderfully said, John. Let's put our focus back on what's truly important, and leave the rest up to God.
 
Well said, John. It truly IS all about Jesus. All else is sideshow or, at best, a facet.

Interesting discussion, also, Steve and Bels. My second marriage was much like Ylops option 2. Seemed as though God said, "Love and marry THIS one, even though you are so very different." I did. We're still together. Still working out our relationship. Sometimes smooth, sometimes rocky, always interesting. If anyone else joins up, we expect more of the same.

But the "if" and "when" and "who" and "how" are all up to God -- with thanks for what He's done so far.
 
All true and good about pursuing the great commission.

However when I attended a wedding some weeks ago, I didn't spend a long time analysing the bride and groom's motives. I just thought to myself "They are getting married". Because getting married is something humans do.

Their level of dedication to the great commission is independent of their marital status.

Same thing when someone gets a new job. Good on them.

Actually this excessive focus on the great commission (in theory anyway, I dont see any mass conversions) seems to me at least in part to diminish the reformation principle of vocation. But that is another discussion.

My main point from this post is I would like to see and hear from more REAL BIBLICAL FAMILIES, and less theoretical ones.

ylop
theoretician
 
i think that john put the focus of our lives in balance; just do well before the Lord and suffer the consequences.

as far as real biblical life, i am just a theoraticion also :(
 
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