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Time to decriminalize polygamy

JustAGuy

Member
Male
The Salt Lake Tribune, Sep 21 2013

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/56 ... k.html.csp

On May 15, 1945, 15 men in suits and ties gathered for a photo opportunity on the steps of the Utah State Prison as they began their indeterminate sentences of up to five years. The supposed crime for which they were being incarcerated was "unlawful cohabitation."

Put differently, the freedom of 15 men was severely restricted, with taxpayers footing the bill for their prosecution and incarceration, because the men had strayed outside society’s norm by consensually choosing to love, support and live with more than one female companion and their subsequent children.

The "unlawful cohabitation" charge was a result of political creativity, allowing prosecutors to successfully punish polygamists using a lower standard of evidence.

While in past decades it was near impossible to punish polygamy due to jury nullification, wives being exempt from testifying against their husbands and the difficulty in proving the existence of a sexual relationship, it became much easier to document and demonstrate mere cohabitation to the courts.

To be sure, Utah has a convoluted and controversial connection to polygamy, and both state and federal law over the past 130 years has been repeatedly amended to find effective ways to extinguish the practice. It hasn’t worked.

There are tens of thousands of individuals — Americans with the same unalienable rights as you and I — who currently live in polygamous families in Utah and other states. The many prosecutions that preceded the 1945 group, the infamous Short Creek raid that followed a few years later, and subsequent cases all illustrate the ultimate ineffectiveness of these laws.

But they are more than just ineffective — they are illegitimate. Whether such consensual unions exist for religious reasons or otherwise, the government lacks the authority to imprison people who so choose to live.

Think about it: the government derives its just powers from individuals who comprise it. If your married neighbor decides to invite another adult woman to live with him, and everybody in that relationship agrees, do you have the moral authority to beat, fine, or imprison him? You do not, and therefore cannot empower your government to do it on your behalf.

Like any demographic, there are many religious, cultural, and political differences between varying polygamous groups. The oddities of and abuse within the FLDS faction are well known, yet more mainstream and "normal" polygamists like Kody Brown and Joe Darger stand as examples that defy the common stereotype that polygamists are Amish-like in their appearance and societal seclusion.

And let’s be clear: polygamous marriages are not perfect. There is abuse, domineering patriarchy, and oppressive cultural pressure within some plural marriages. But many monogamous marriages feature exactly the same problems.

In its current incarnation, Utah’s anti-polygamy law makes it a third-degree felony for a married person to "purport to marry" or "cohabit" with another person. Having been investigated and threatened with prosecution by Lehi Police and the Utah County attorney, polygamist Kody Brown fled Utah with his family and sued the state to challenge this law in federal court. A ruling is expected any day from District Court Judge Clark Waddoups, and many believe that there is a good chance the law will be overturned.

Utah needs to abandon its anachronistic legal crusade against peaceful individuals who practice what many of our ancestors proudly did. To the extent that abuse exists within polygamous communities, then it should be investigated and punished.

The best way to discover and stop abuse is to lift the threat of criminal prosecution from consenting adults, thereby encouraging them to stop living in the shadows of society. They, and we, will be better off as a result.
 
Hello, Good People of Biblical Families, Me, again. First, I'm not an Attorney, so I don't give Legal Advice. I could be called a Lawyer, because I Study law.
This is probably considered to be out of line, but maybe worth while to those who will consider it.
Polygyny has never been criminalized, unless YOU make big mistakes.
The Supreme Court has made many rullings to that effect. It is the same as saying that the Supreme Court legalized Abortion, It done NO such thing.
The People never read what is really said, "The Words" have a meaning.
" My People Perish For Lack Of Knowledge"
The Public School Systems, and the Pagon Temples, are in existance for one reason, "People Control" not for Your benefit. They're there to control the way YOU think. That's why Polygyny is Criminalized, You think it is, because that's what that appears to be.
When YOU can come out of the box, and think, and read, and understand
what YOU read, the World begins to look different.
You will have NO need for Attorneys and Lawyers, You'll know where YOU stand in Society.
Those Honorable Men mentioned in the Article, made one grave Mistake,
They hired Attorneys to Represent them, because They had been taught to do it that way, by their mentors, whoever that may have been.
Attorneys are a Private Club, Officers of the Commercial Courts, of the STATE enterprise/corporations, their sole job of the Attorney is to protect the Commercial STATE Court, by making sure that when the case is finished, YOU have no appealable issue. They write the STATE laws.
There's not going be any change, that's going to be any benefit to the Natural Persons, as long as an attorney is involved, that's how He makes money.
The good News, All Statutes, Codes, Ordinances, Constitutions, and Treaties, are the copyrighted material to govern the enterprise corporations, "NOT" the Natural Persons, unless YOU are an Employee, or an Office Holder, in that Private Corporation, THE STATE.
The Supreme Court has made This Ruling multiple times.
The Great Creator left YOU a way out of Satan's grip. The Great Satan, THE STATE OF, _________, has no power over YOU, unless YOU allow it to.

Me,
 
Golden2seal, whether the laws are legitimate or not, the police and judiciary believe that they are, and enforce them using force. It's interesting from a theoretical perspective to discuss the moral basis of the law, but just not believing in it won't stop the cops knocking on your door. What should a family actually do if they are arrested despite this, in your opinion?
 
Followinghim; I can appreciate Your Reply. I hope I didn't indicate to anyone that I use any type of Theory in What I said, I had no intention of doing that. The Law is very real. Also, there's many different Law forms, 36, I believe to be correct. So, which Law Form do You use? Under what Law Form are You required to Live? Under what Law form have You been Charged?
What Court has jurisdiction, over what Law Form? This is just a few questions You need to answer for Yourself, and it's all very real, no Theory.
And Most Attorneys don't know the answers.
Your COURTS, COPS, Attorneys, and the Corporations, called government, do not opperate in law. These Commercial Private entities opperate on the Policy, Customs, and Procedure, of the Corporate Agencies. They're required to opperate within the Statutes, Codes, Ordinances, Constitutions, and Treaties, mandated by the Congress of the state, or Federal, and entered into the Public Law, but the Agencies don't opperate within that boundey, therefore; USC Title 42. 1983, rights violations. Along with lots of other remedies.
All of the Agencies, called government, are Private Corporations for Profit. If They can't force You to contract with them, they can't make a profit. Therefore; if they followed the Law, they couldn't make any profit off the people, so they set the people up, through the Public School systems, and the Pagan Temples, to follow the other Sheep off the cliff.
You're the only person who can claim Your rights. You have approximately 1100 rights. Nobody can take Your rights from you. You have to volunteer to give them up. Any Court in the UNITED STATES, has to have Your consent to try You for a crime. They get Your consent by trickery.
Due to the Agencies making a profit off Court cases, You don't have to break the law to be arrested. If You are arrested, The Plaintiff will be the STATE OF ________, and You think You're the Defendant, but You ain't. The DEFENDANT is the fiction created by the STATE when You was born, by the STATE creating a private trust, as Your name, all fraud. All Statutes, Codes, Ordinances, Constitutions, and Treaties, are for Persons. You think You are one of those Persons, but You ain't. There's 2 kinds of Persons, Corporate Persons, and Natural Persons, check out Deleware Code Title 8. corporations, Georgia code 1-2-1.
Now to answer Your Question, "the first thing You do, is Don't say anything, the second thing You do is, keep Your mouth shut, the third thing You do is, Shut up, everything You say will be used against You.
Make Your bond. See what the charges are. Check all applicable Law.
Read at least 5 Statutes on each side of the ones You're charged with. Check all rules, to make sure the Authorities followad them precisely, they never do. Your first hearing is Administrative, Civil, "commercial" under the Administrative Act of 1946. Have Yourself a Counterclaim filed in the Case before 30 days have passed.
Non of the previous statements are for Legal advice.
According to the Scriptures, all men are liers.

Me,
 
golden2seal said:
According to the Scriptures, all men are liers.

Me,
somehow, I just could not resist.

ok, I did not try very hard ;) :D
 
There is no excuse for your spelling and grammar if you write court documents for a living. I'm sorry but I don't believe you.
 
The government in this country (USA) seems to love to have laws that they can't enforce - then they wonder why our young people and others do not respect the law! i think that the laws against p m are nonsense personally.
Something i would like to know and don't know where to ask it, is this: How many Biblical Families on here have had their church discipline or shun them in some way because of
p m- either formally, like to excommunicate/disfellowship/shun or informally by social ostracism?

What saddens me about such situations, whether by the government or by religions/churches, not only hurts the consenting adults involved, but also their kids! i have to wonder how much damage is done to the kids? (thanks be some folks have the option to home school these days!)

On the Sister Wives F.B. page for the T V show some guy just compared that family to the FLDS, which practices non-consensual p m including pedophile behavior by marrying off girls as young as 12 year old children. i blew a very public hissy fit and said that, ALTHOUGH i DO NOT BELIEVE THIS AT ALL, that to say this it is as if the author had said that all Catholics are Pedophiles because some of their priests are - both, to me, are equally nonsense.
j/L "Granny" Matrika / Rolling Buffalo Woman
 
Isabella said:
There is no excuse for your spelling and grammar if you write court documents for a living. I'm sorry but I don't believe you.
I have no doubt that he writes court documents, that he even floods those courts with said documents.
but not for a living. ;)
unless he is suing and winning one every now and then.
 
Moderator hat on

Settle down guys. ChrisM, "troll" was uncalled for, as far as I can see golden2seal genuinely believes what he says, rightly or wrongly, and posts because he believes it would be beneficial. Golden2seal, insulting a well regarded member of this forum by putting down their level of education is also completely uncalled for, and frankly ridiculous. Cool it both of you, we can all be mature enough to have a civil discussion even if we think the other's views are nonsensical. Or to refrain from posting.

Just killing the argument before it starts.

Moderator hat off


Steve, I think you're quite likely on the right track. Golden2seal, in what capacity do you write court documents? How frequently are you actually successful? (as a general rule, not asking for a life history here!). And what relevance does all this have to those of us who do not live in the USA?
 
steve said:
I have no doubt that he writes court documents, that he even floods those courts with said documents.
but not for a living. ;)
unless he is suing and winning one every now and then.

Looks like I inserted the 'for a living part' anyway, he never said that. Still, unless he does it in a foreign language I can't believe someone who has such a careless attitude towards language writes official documents meant to be taken seriously and then he has the gall to talk to others about education.
 
Bels,
I think that 200 years ago capitalization was a lot more indiscriminate. they threw a lot more of them in and did not follow the current rules.
maybe he feels that it makes his writing look more authentic?
it is, at any rate, incredibly annoying. (which may be his goal)


I pray that my non-compliance is less annoying. :D
 
steve said:
Bels,
I think that 200 years ago capitalization was a lot more indiscriminate. they threw a lot more of them in and did not follow the current rules.
maybe he feels that it makes his writing look more authentic?
it is, at any rate, incredibly annoying. (which may be his goal)


I pray that my non-compliance is less annoying. :D

You are, as always, totally cool Steve :)
 
I think the question to ask is, "what is the profit in criminalizing polygyny"? Seems to me that government gets more secular by the day. You would think any religious opposition would be waning, so there must be an economic incentive.
 
You would think any religious opposition would be waning, so there must be an economic incentive.
I think that it has more to do with control.
any belief system outside of our own may soon be supported for embracing poly.
 
Isabella said:
You are, as always, totally cool Steve :)
:oops: you may be confusing me with someone else :oops:
but thanx
 
ChrisM, I agree with everything you just said. I keep thinking similar things myself, it's great to see someone else write them down. Even individual taxation is a brilliant idea, saves a massive pile of bureaucracy and expense, keeping overall taxation lower. The best way is the simplest way. And it certainly solves the marriage issue.

We should form a political party. Want to move to New Zealand? :D
 
We should form a political party.
we will, in the millennium.
we can get the platform written now, oh wait, it has already been written ;)
 
I have read Your Posts concerning My posts on this thread. First off, if You pay attention, You know that what is written does not come out the same when posted. It should make no difference to You about the form or the spelling in the post, if the message is correct.
Pursuant to the Style Manual, it's only what a paper does that counts, not the form or the spelling. If You read Blackstone's Commentaries, or the Federalist's Papers, and the Style manual used for Docs. You could better understand why My writing looks weird to You. Most computers are not set up to do Court docs. without a special program. So what grammer You have been taught in the Public School System, is useless in a Court setting. Even the words that You are sure You know the meaning of, will not be the same in a Court setting. Get You a good Law Dictionary and look up common words that You use every day, You'll be very surprised at the meanings. I understand why what I say to you, is rejected, it's Your failure to understand what is said.
This kind of knowledge is purposely not taught in any Public School System in any of the Israelite Countries. If it was taught, the powers that be would loose control of the people. You don't see the Elite's Children attending a Public School.
Just for starters, When You get a bill from the Electric company, You don't know what it says. When You get a bank statement You don't know what it says. When You write a check, You don't know what You've done. I could go on.
I have nothing to gain by My trying to get Your mind to working, outside the box. I can see that some on here would like to maintain control of the Sheeple, I have no interest in controling anybody. I have no need to.
I do win most court cases, I get involved in, not all.
My trade is heavy industry, Mechanical Engineering, and I don't do that anymore because of the corruption.
All I try to show You is not hid, but in plain sight, in the copyrighted Codes, Statutes, Ordinances, Constitutions, and Treaties. " Code" means secret.
Knowledge is Freedom, Ignorance is Slavery. See: Willie Lynch Letter, 1712, That's what has been used on the People today, by the powers that be, and it don't matter that You ain't black.

Me
 
Golden2seal, I have read plenty of legal documents and am quite familiar with how they are written. And what is written on this forum comes out exactly the same when posted, our computers are too dumb to do anything other than exactly what you tell them.

I am rather frustrated with this discussion because it sounds like you might have something interesting to say, but you never say it. All you are doing is claiming we don't understand anything but you know the truth about everything from constitutional law to grammar. Which is completely ridiculous to be honest.

If you believe there is some deep truth we should know, just say it in plain language, or better link to some articles where others explain it clearly since it appears you cannot. I am quite intelligent enough to understand constitutional documents if I take the time to read them, but aren't going to do that unless someone presents a pretty solid and concise case that it would be worth the effort, I've got better things to do with my time than go on wild goose chases. I would expect the same goes for most readers.
 
It could do, but then I would be the one bragging. Our posts should be assessed on their own merits not any perceived authority, we're all equal disciples of Christ. But yes, I do inwardly chuckle when people accuse others on this forum of being poorly educated or unintelligent. Anyone who realises polygyny is ok and can back that from scripture is clearly quite able to read a complicated document and come to their own independent conclusions rather than just blindly believing what some authority figure like a pastor says. This is a group of very intelligent individuals here, some of whom use that intelligence to make enough money to support unusually large families, a fact that should cause anybody to think twice before doubting their intellect, or claiming authority themselves thinking people will be impressed.
 
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