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The Final Feast and Spirit Led Polygamy

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Dear All,

My website is http://www.thefinalfeast.com

My site is devoted to the spiritual fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. I became a polygamist through following God's Spirit when I entered into this experience.

I speak about polygamy in the African section towards the top and to the right of the main page.

Blessings,

Justin
 
Thanks for the link to your site, Justin. I have been there before, but need to spend some time now going through more of your writings.
 
Hi All,

I have updated my site quite a bit. Check out the Africa section. Polygamy is legal in Kenya now and if you would like to join me on my next trip contact me at: justin@thefinalfeast.com

God bless,

Justin
 
Hi Justin.

Thanks for posting a link to your site.

I had a look at a link entitled "Love at First Sight".

In the article you stated:

---

"One of the ways He does this is through “love at first sight” which is in reality a taste of the first love of the Garden of Eden. This love instantly connects two people through physical attraction and a deep soul and spirit attachment that is above and beyond this natural world. It is as if you have known this person all your life and feel instantly comfortable with them. Something that you did not even know you were missing is suddenly there and you feel complete.

This type of love sometimes even takes place if you are married. If this happens does it mean that it is not of God? Not necessarily. Some people are married to other people, not through the will of God, but because of their own choice. Remember, it is what God puts together that we are not supposed to put asunder. If we choose our mate outside the will of His Spirit do you think that now God is bound to honor you have done? Abraham did this and El Shaddi did not feel bound to honor his choice because it was not His choice. In fact, to get things back on track, Abraham’s choice had to go.

I am talking the exception rather than the rule here but it does happen. Sometimes, in order for God’s will to be done in the present you must correct the choices you have made in the past. If we have left the path that God chose for us a long time ago sometimes these corrections can be rather drastic. If you experience “love at first sight” you should carefully consider what is going on and ask God what is the meaning of it."

---

My personal belief is that a marriage is a marriage, whether rightly or wrongly established.

It is up to the husband and wife to make the best of it.

Particularly so in plural circles when some are tempted to simply walk away in situations that would stay together if subject to the public scrutiny and legal boundaries of monogamous marriage.

I think it is delusional and dangerous to believe that an existing marriage may have been to the wrong person; as I have no confidence that I can correctly discern the precise will of God in these matters. Rather in a situation of "love at first sight" I think it would be my own lust or foolish desire leading me astray.

A marriage is a blood covenant and is for life.

Laban knew that Jacob would keep Leah after he slept with her, because Jacob was a Godly man and would honour the lifetime covenant of marriage; even though Rachel was his love at first sight.

Would you like to elaborate on your beliefs?

Cheers,

ylop
 
Dear Ylop,

Thank you for your reply to my essay on my website. You can make comments there too if you wish for sometimes what I say is censored here.

You stated,

"I think it is delusional and dangerous to believe that an existing marriage may have been to the wrong person; as I have no confidence that I can correctly discern the precise will of God in these matters. Rather in a situation of "love at first sight" I think it would be my own lust or foolish desire leading me astray."

Know, first off, that I am not attacking you personally for your beliefs. I believe you have the right to decide what you believe and to state your opinion on the matter. What I will address is statements you made so as to teach others my point of view which I believe is the truth of the scriptures.

I understand that many people consider whatever choice they make of mate as final no matter how poorly they have chosen. I suppose if you took it to extremes, as many do, then they would assert that even if your wife was a mass murderer, since you made a blood covenant with her, then you would have to remain married to her for life even if she were locked up in super-max.

To me, I think this is a very legalistic interpretation of God's will and furthermore makes little sense. You are essentially saying that God, who is sovereign, is bound to whatever decision we make. However, I would assert that scripturally that is not the case at all. If you look in the book of Ezra chapter 9 and 10 you will see that God, through Ezra, makes a very big deal out of marrying those who are not of the covenant of Israel. This is not an obscure scripture but rather two chapters of the Bible. Therefore, there is scriptural precedence showing us that God does not want his people to marry out of His will. By you own dogmatism, those who married of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians, and the Amorites nations should have kept their wives no matter what. You logic demands that they acted wrongly in making a covenant to put away their wives and children. The only problem with your viewpoint is that God does not see it that way.

I do not take divorce lighting but neither do I take following the will of God lightly either. In my opinion, Jephthah should not have immolated his daughter simply because he made a rash vow. Also, in my opinion, people should not be eternally damaged because they made a rash vow either. I believe what God has joined together let no man put asunder but what man has joined together, out of his ignorance, pride, or foolishness, God is not bound to honor.

I hope this helps clarify things,

blessings,

Justin
 
I agree with ylop, this is very dangerous teaching as it undermines the security of women in marriage. If a married man finds himself attracted to another woman, he may marry her, but to divorce his wife to do so would be sinful as Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 19:9 and elsewhere. We cannot justify through our own reasoning that which Christ has specifically prohibited.

In Ezra, they had a very clear command from God not to marry as they did. We do not have such a command, so this is irrelevant. Even marriage to an unbeliever is to be upheld by you unless your spouse chooses to leave. 1 Co 7:12-16.

Men need to be committed to their first wives, first wives need to know they have that security, and I for one will not accept any spurious reasoning that undermines this clear teaching of Scripture.
 
Dear All,

I would submit to everyone that truth is not inherently dangerous but that sometimes those who handle it are. Yes, the truth about how God see divorces, the nuances of it and the exceptions to His general rules, can be dangerous in the hands of those who are not pure of heart. However, instead of banning truth because someone might be hurt by those who misuse it, why not teach everyone the balanced and proper use of it so that everyone can be safe, secure, and ultimately blessed.

I do agree with the "hardness of their hearts" precept though. Really, if our hearts were not so hard in the first place, even if we did make a bad decision, then God could and might work anything out. However, hardness is a fact of life and it takes two to make a marriage covenant work. In the main, God hates divorce, but there are times when God even commands it.

Blessings,

Justin
 
Just wondering if anyone read Dr. William Luck book on divorce. I look at his video he seems to do a good job to me of teaching scripture. It does seem to me that people tend to use their marriage to gauge their salvation which is wrong. I know our marriage(s) are symbolical to Christ relationship towards the church.
Aerockk
 
JM, I'm not getting the connection between "love at first sight" (whatever that is - different conversation) and the Ezra situation.

It's like you're saying "falling head-over-heels in love with another woman is reasonable ground to leave my wife, and I know that leaving her is okay because a long time ago some other guys put away their wives for a completely different reason". (If that's not a fair assessment of what you're saying, please point out to me what I'm missing.)

Even if Ezra's example has some application today in the face of Jesus's later teaching on the subject of divorce, I do not see how it applies in the case of "love at first sight". Further, since the very idea of "love at first sight", or "infatuation", or "chemistry", or "finding your soul mate" is pretty much in the eye of the beholder, the idea that this feeling you have would be ground for divorce of your first wife is suspect on every level.

In the context of this community it seems to me that the clear resolution of the matter (assuming that "love at first sight" is some kind of self-validating reason to marry someone) would be to add the second woman to the family. If a guy had some kind of beef with the first wife that was a legitimate ground for divorce, then it should have already been handled, and to mix the two situations together raises an eyebrow about the motives and integrity of the man who would do that.
 
Justin Mangonel said:
If you look in the book of Ezra chapter 9 and 10 you will see that God, through Ezra, makes a very big deal out of marrying those who are not of the covenant of Israel. This is not an obscure scripture but rather two chapters of the Bible. Therefore, there is scriptural precedence showing us that God does not want his people to marry out of His will.
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Non sequitur. God prohibited Israel from marrying foreign wives. This law prohibited one tribe from marrying women from other tribes, and had clear objective boundaries in its application and enforcement. To extrapolate from there to some subjective (and rethinkable-when-it's-convenient) ideas about "God's will" is quite a jump.
 
To answer a previous question, no I have not been divorced. Divorce terrifies me as I would view it personally as a great failure of mine. I work very hard to prevent divorce and pray it will never occur to me. But of course I know I am not perfect and also not in control of other's behaviour (although I am the leader).

I recognise that there may be some (rare) circumstances where divorce is appropriate.

But to take JM's example where my wife became a mass murderer, my personal belief is that she would still be my wife, and it would be my job to minister to her (in prison, or wherever) for life. She is my permanent responsibility from the moment she agreed to become my wife. That's just how I personally understand marriage. Same as if she became disabled or something like that. It doesn't change the fact that she is my wife and I must care for her.

My biggest problem with this "love at first sight" theory is that it looks like exactly the kind of belief that would be used by a "spiritual" man to persuade a woman to leave her "worldly" husband and come and be an additional wife with him. Which is pre-meditated adultery in my book.

For that reason, I believe the biblical families community should keep light years away from it.

All the best,

ylop
 
To all concerned;

Michael, (dba Justin) is here to draw visitors to his website and thus his "ministry".


Mal 2:15
................. and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16
For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away:........................ therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

I speak as a divorced man.
YHWH hates it.
Now that I understand poly I can see that my divorce was unnecessary and therefor unacceptable. I have repented and she has moved on.

Divorce because "YHWH did not put us together"?
YHWH forbid, and he does.
 
cwcsmc said:
Is 'love at first sight' a possible arrangement God could use to bring a husband and wife together in any marriage relationship, first wife, second wife or third, and given that polygamy is acceptable, there would be no reason for divorce of anyone, correct?
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1) You do not understand what Michael is really teaching here, best just let that ball lay right there in the poison ivy.
2) It IS a possible way for YHWH to bring two together, but when things get rough the question ALWAYS becomes; "Did YHWH really give me that feeling?" It is pointless to speculate.
 
ylop said:
To answer a previous question, no I have not been divorced. Divorce terrifies me as I would view it personally as a great failure of mine. I work very hard to prevent divorce and pray it will never occur to me. But of course I know I am not perfect and also not in control of other's behaviour (although I am the leader).

I recognise that there may be some (rare) circumstances where divorce is appropriate.

But to take JM's example where my wife became a mass murderer, my personal belief is that she would still be my wife, and it would be my job to minister to her (in prison, or wherever) for life. She is my permanent responsibility from the moment she agreed to become my wife. That's just how I personally understand marriage. Same as if she became disabled or something like that. It doesn't change the fact that she is my wife and I must care for her.

My biggest problem with this "love at first sight" theory is that it looks like exactly the kind of belief that would be used by a "spiritual" man to persuade a woman to leave her "worldly" husband and come and be an additional wife with him. Which is pre-meditated adultery in my book.

For that reason, I believe the biblical families community should keep light years away from it.

All the best,

ylop
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AMEN ON ALL POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!
 
You asked if I had been divorced.

I answered.

I put a bit more about my personal beliefs on divorce.

Its just you who is extrapolating that to anything else.
 
cwcsmc said:
Suppose we remove the example of Ezra. Is 'love at first sight' a possible arrangement God could use to bring a husband and wife together in any marriage relationship, first wife, second wife or third, and given that polygamy is acceptable, there would be no reason for divorce of anyone, correct?
Click to expand...
I don't have a problem with the basic idea of LAFS, but I have a concern that the idea gets misused in a lot of different ways. I agree with you absolutely that with no prohibition of additional marriages then there would be no reason for divorce, which is why I'm having trouble figuring out why JM tied the idea of LAFS to the example of a group of people putting away their "foreign wives".

Back to LAFS, I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If someone says the "fell in love at first sight" and they go on to build a responsible, productive relationship, then I say great! In some cases, though, LAFS, or just "falling in love" generally, gets used as a pass for irresponsible, unacceptable behavior (like, you know, abandoning your wife...). "I can't help it; I'm in love", etc. I call BS on that one.
 
Dear Andrew,

You are right, what I am saying is being a bit misunderstood. I will try to explain better. I apologize for my slow reply because all my messages must be assessed by the moderator before they will be posted.

Before I do that, you last point about simply marrying another wife does take care of the situation neatly if your first wife is in agreement. So, on that we find consensus.

I think that some may be over blowing what, to me anyway, is a very narrow application of a specific instance. So, let me state that I am not saying that these types of "love at first sight" situations are the norm but rather they are the exception. So, I would ask that people bear this in mind when talking about this particular topic.

I believe that God fashioned Eve to be the perfect help meet for Adam. God in effect was intimately involved in Adam's choice of mate. I further believe that God wants to be intimately involved in each and every godly union. This is so for many reasons. First and foremost is our generations. Secondly, our choice of mate (or mates) has a profound effect on our spiritual life and usefulness to God. If, for instance, you were Spirit led to marry your spouse chances are pretty good that you will be equally yoked and thus prosper in your marriage. This not only helps both of you mature in Jesus but also makes you able to manifest God to a greater degree than if you chose unwisely.

I believe that what is termed "love at first site" is sometimes not just infatuation but a spiritual connection between two believers that God wants to join together. He does this through foreknowledge. In some cases people have made terrible choices, before or after they received Christ, and are bound in marriages that are damaging them both. In these instances, God may decide to break that union, that was never ordained by Him in the fist place, in favor of a better union of His choosing. Keep in mind this is still not the norm.

Some objected to this position saying that God never ordains divorce except in the case of adultery. I counter that this is not scripturally so. I gave the biblical reference for that point. Ezra 9,10.

I just read the post from "Steve." All I did is post a small announcement that I had updated my site and that I would be traveling to Africa again soon if anyone wanted to come along. So, Steve, in that regard I did want to give opportunity for those so interested to do so. However, another person who took issue with something written on my site, took the liberty to voice his object to my writings here, on this site, on this posit as opposed to just replying on my site. I told him that I welcomed him to comment on my posts on my writings but that I thought it might be a better to do so than there than on this particular post. However, others started posting replies to this person comments here and so we have a full blown discussion on a tread that has nothing to do with it.

Therefore, Steve, no, I am not trying to do anything but share my undated site with people here on this forum. What is causing the back and forth here is that people cannot tolerate a different point of view on the subject of marriage even though they want the whole world to understand their point of view on polygamy.

What I am beginning to sense, is an intolerant attitude from some who cannot bear to have anything they hold dear questioned. The more I state my case, however politely, the more they seem to want to make this not about theology but about something more personal. I am almost feeling spiritually bullied at this point and wonder if I should just keep quiet about this particular subject (that I did not bring up) rather than ruffle the feathers of the those who take exception to what I am saying.

It strikes me as odd, that those who want to challenge the very foundation of normative Christian marriage with further truth on marriage cannot find it in their hearts to consider what I say without brow beating me like others do to them.

With this in mind I think I will bow out of this thread so I do not stumble those who are not able to hold such a discussion without become agitated. My intent was never to make this an issue here but others seem bent on doing so.

In the future, if someone has questions about anything I write I would definitely encourage them to comment of the particular essay on my site or simply email so that we can carry on a discussion in those more appropriate venues.

One question I would like to ask: Do you moderate anyone else but me?

Sincerely,

Justin
 
CWCSMC, I have no knowledge of the circumstances of your divorce, and am not enquiring.

I already said divorce may be correct in some rare circumstances.

In most Western countries the divorce rate is approaching 50% so I don't think we are discussing the right topics.

ylop
 
cwcsmc said:
andrew said:
I agree with you absolutely that with no prohibition of additional marriages then there would be no reason for divorce, which is why I'm having trouble figuring out why JM tied the idea of LAFS to the example of a group of people putting away their "foreign wives".
Click to expand...
I just don't get where these two ideas were connected in this discussion. It is my understanding that the example of divorce in Ezra was to argue against the so called 'blood convent' of marriage and was not connected to LAFS.
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I went to JM's website to be sure there wasn't something I'm missing there. The post is located here, and ylop quotes it accurately. In the original quote from JM's site, he is going on about "love at first sight" and brings up the subject of the experience—all too common in this culture, apparently—of "falling in love" with a woman you are not married to, while being married to someone else at the time. See for yourself (boldface and underline added):

JM said:
One of the ways He does this is through “love at first sight” which is in reality a taste of the first love of the Garden of Eden. This love instantly connects two people through physical attraction and a deep soul and spirit attachment that is above and beyond this natural world. It is as if you have known this person all your life and feel instantly comfortable with them. Something that you did not even know you were missing is suddenly there and you feel complete.

This type of love sometimes even takes place if you are married. If this happens does it mean that it is not of God? Not necessarily. Some people are married to other people, not through the will of God, but because of their own choice. Remember, it is what God puts together that we are not supposed to put asunder. If we choose our mate outside the will of His Spirit do you think that now God is bound to honor you have done? Abraham did this and El Shaddi did not feel bound to honor his choice because it was not His choice. In fact, to get things back on track, Abraham’s choice had to go.

I am talking the exception rather than the rule here but it does happen. Sometimes, in order for God’s will to be done in the present you must correct the choices you have made in the past. If we have left the path that God chose for us a long time ago sometimes these corrections can be rather drastic. If you experience “love at first sight” you should carefully consider what is going on and ask God what is the meaning of it.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know what to make of that. Talk about "zigged when you should have zagged"!...

In a discussion forum hosted by a group dedicated to the proposition that biblical polygamy is not an oxymoron, JM associates LAFS with a decision that your existing marriage was "outside the will of His Spirit", something God "did not feel bound to honor" because "it was not His choice". He holds up Abraham as an example as if it were Abraham's idea and not Sarah's, and reaches the irrational conclusion that "Abrahan's choice had to go" because it was presumably 'outside His will', and not simply as a field-expedient solution to Sarah's fickleness and jealousy.

I have no idea how JM made that leap, but it was JM that made the leap, not ylop or anyone else challenging JM's assertions. Then, upon being challenged by ylop, JM went further to adduce Ezra's example as evidence in support of the proposition that "God does not want his people to marry out of His will". Well, duh, because God would prefer that we not do anything outside of his will, but that hardly cuts it as evidence in support of the proposition that "therefore, God wants you to ditch your wife if something better comes along". This entire conversation evolved out of JM's idea that LAFS with another woman might be some evidence that you are 'married to the wrong woman' and should therefore cut her loose.

And if that is not what JM meant in his original post, then (a) he seriously needs to work on his writing skills, and (b) this entire thread is a waste of everyone's time. A plain reading of JM's original post is that the joy and gratification of LAFS is being used as a springboard to reconsidering whether you're married to the 'right' person, with some added language about how if you conclude that you originally 'married outside God's will' you get a pass on any resulting divorce. Coming from a guy who says he's a polygamist ministering to polygamists, who is posting on this discussion board, that is a staggering proposition.
 
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