Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mean?

[Anonymous]

This has bugged me. I am past the puppy love and children etc... I am wanting a biblical covenant. If Godly men
are looking to care for the abandoned women, where are they? I know I have a caring family and wonderful
children and grandchildren, but I am still alone. I crave that companionship and intimacy that a covenant union
gives me. I just need clarification. dede

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

This has bugged me. I am past the puppy love and children etc... I am wanting a biblical covenant. If Godly men
are looking to care for the abandoned women, where are they? I know I have a caring family and wonderful
children and grandchildren, but I am still alone. I crave that companionship and intimacy that a covenant union
gives me. I just need clarification. dede

Excellent question!

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

This question, about the application of James 1:27, is what drove me to PM in the first place, JenM. Far as I can tell, it is one of those situations where the answer is OBVIOUS but not RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT (the holy version of 'politically correct').

If we keep reading, we will clearly see James' writing style, and his point. When folks come to you with a stated need, MEET THE NEED!

If someone shows up hungry, offering to lead them to Christ via the Sinners' Prayer, or to pray for them, or even to offer sage advice on healthful cookery, just doesn't cut it! Feed 'em! Well!

If they show up cold, (naked? Hunh? ), do CLOTHES! Sick? Dead? Tormented? Lay hands, raise the dead, cast out demons!

Which brings us back around to James 1:27 ... Husbandless? Fatherless? Provide a husband and/or father.

I will, however, offer a personal observation about a glaring difference between these two roles / situations and the others mentioned. It is a difference which has me currently in a state of some uncertainty and discomfort.

Hungry and cold, even sick, etc., are temporary situations which can be solved by a single event, after which they can be on their way. One might even make it an extended event, and house / provide for them for a time, as some here have repeatedly done with even whole families! But the situation was still temporary, with the expectation of them "getting on their feet" and resuming complete independence.

Marriage and adoption, au contraire, are permanent. And have permanent consequences on the existing family. Right now, in other threads, we are hearing of the distress caused by the addition of a 2nd wife who undoubtedly was single and in need of a husband, but who apparently is strong willed and has a clear agenda of her own that does not match that of the family she joined. Similarly, what do you do if you accept a "son" into your home, and he won't keep his unwelcome hands (or even welcome hands) off your young daughters? That has happened among this community as well.

What then? Divorce? Is that God's plan? Beat her into submission? I don't THINK so! (Better not let ME hear about it!)

I can easily respond immediately and completely to the needs of anyone who shows up cold or hungry. With some more Biblically accurate training than contemporary churches provide, I may also be able to immediately and completely respond to the needs of anyone who shows up sick, dead, or tormented.

Husbandless and fatherless is a bit more complicated. And I'm not sure how best to deal with them. PM and adoption are clearly the answers. So is a strong patriarchal understanding, and a commitment to right training. But ... what is the responsibility, when it involves potentially bringing serious disruption to the family? Dunno.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Cecil,

The real problem is that the Church (and society-at-large, in that part of the world where the RCC once held absolute political power) has been RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT for so long (about 900-1000 years) that a girl expects to grow up and be the only woman of some Prince Charming who will worship her as if she were a goddess (where do you think that the word ROMANtic came from?), and will automatically, because of the false teaching that has endured for 10 centuries, rebel against something that is perfectly acceptable - and even commanded, under some circumstances - in God's plan for families.

You are exactly right in your analysis of James 1:27. And, in a society that viewed polygyny as being religiously correct, there would be little or no problem because of the first woman rebelling to the addition of another woman and one or more kids to the family.

But you also raised some valid concerns about adopted sons and daughters. In most traditional families (those based on the false monogamy-only teaching), sons and daughters are not sexually attracted to each other - you have heard the saying, "That's about as exciting as kissing your sister" - because of being taught that way from infancy. But the sudden addition of a hormone-laden teen to a family that already has a hormone-laden teen of the opposite sex could create a real challenging situation.

I, too, would like to hear from other, wiser, men on this. (Maybe wiser because of having dealt with this situation?)

 

[lights12]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

This question, about the application of James 1:27, is what drove me to PM in the first place, JenM. Far as I can tell, it is one of those situations where the answer is OBVIOUS but not RELIGIOUSLY CORRECT (the holy version of 'politically correct').

If we keep reading, we will clearly see James' writing style, and his point. When folks come to you with a stated need, MEET THE NEED!

If someone shows up hungry, offering to lead them to Christ via the Sinners' Prayer, or to pray for them, or even to offer sage advice on healthful cookery, just doesn't cut it! Feed 'em! Well!

If they show up cold, (naked? Hunh? ), do CLOTHES! Sick? Dead? Tormented? Lay hands, raise the dead, cast out demons!

Which brings us back around to James 1:27 ... Husbandless? Fatherless? Provide a husband and/or father.

I will, however, offer a personal observation about a glaring difference between these two roles / situations and the others mentioned. It is a difference which has me currently in a state of some uncertainty and discomfort.

Hungry and cold, even sick, etc., are temporary situations which can be solved by a single event, after which they can be on their way. One might even make it an extended event, and house / provide for them for a time, as some here have repeatedly done with even whole families! But the situation was still temporary, with the expectation of them "getting on their feet" and resuming complete independence.

Marriage and adoption, au contraire, are permanent. And have permanent consequences on the existing family. Right now, in other threads, we are hearing of the distress caused by the addition of a 2nd wife who undoubtedly was single and in need of a husband, but who apparently is strong willed and has a clear agenda of her own that does not match that of the family she joined. Similarly, what do you do if you accept a "son" into your home, and he won't keep his unwelcome hands (or even welcome hands) off your young daughters? That has happened among this community as well.

What then? Divorce? Is that God's plan? Beat her into submission? I don't THINK so! (Better not let ME hear about it!)

I can easily respond immediately and completely to the needs of anyone who shows up cold or hungry. With some more Biblically accurate training than contemporary churches provide, I may also be able to immediately and completely respond to the needs of anyone who shows up sick, dead, or tormented.

Husbandless and fatherless is a bit more complicated. And I'm not sure how best to deal with them. PM and adoption are clearly the answers. So is a strong patriarchal understanding, and a commitment to right training. But ... what is the responsibility, when it involves potentially bringing serious disruption to the family? Dunno.

Cecil, your responses are always so kind and well thought out and temperate. I agree with you, marriage and adoption are permanent and not to be taken lightly. I would not want to become a wife 1st, 2nd,or 8th, only because I was a widow/orphan and appear to be in need. Nor would I want to seem like I could be strong willed, merely because I have had to handle things alone for so long. In fact, I am very shy and unassuming in my heart. So where does that leave someone like myself or dede??? And additionally, I hear almost anger in some posts, that frightens me, not from you though I mean. I feel like their are two schools of thought on the idea of patriarchal family. I am hoping to find a family if God leads me to that, but how would one know what constitutes a woman rebelling in a particular man's eyes as compared to another man's eyes? And how would someone like myself know that say a 1st wife was not truly troubled by an additional wife coming into the family and was going to be miserable because of it? I would never want to lead anyone to pain or live with someone who was really unhappy with my presence. I certainly would not want to live in fear. I believe in the love of family. Am I wrong?? And thank you for you for your anti violence stance truly. You have no idea what that means to someone like me!!! Is there scripture that you or anyone can give she and I that may answer the question more fully. I just feel confused.

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

So where does that leave someone like myself or dede???

In a VERY good place, actually!!! Because the corollary is that neither do you have to ACCEPT the "covering" or courtship of the very first man you talk to, or who announces that God has told him to take you as his wife! :roll:

To the contrary. Just as a man may express his interest in you, like Ruth you may express your own interest in a man. Also like Ruth, you don't have to do so right away. This is one of the reasons we advocate retreats -- you have a chance to get acquainted. SOMEtimes even see a man interacting with an existing wife under disagreeable circumstances! We're real people there, not simply online personalities.

Also, if your interaction with a man and, if applicable, his wife online sounds promising, we advocate that you get face to face as early and often as possible. And NOT make commitment sounding noises until enough of that is done. And talk over everything imaginable. Your first foray into potential relationship may very well NOT be your permanent one. Or it may. We're real people, with real virtues and vices.

If you find that his management style doesn't suit your needs -- that he is too controlling or not controlling enough -- you are free to look some more.

It is also why we're strongly advocate NOT introducing the sexual element until you are ready to enter into covenant. It may be interesting and exciting. You may need to TALK about it enough to discover whether you have similar interests, expectations, and boundaries. For those of us a bit older, that may include similar current capabilities! :lol: But that is different entirely from getting horizontal ...

Remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Marry in haste, repent at leisure. And all the other wise sayings that have worn well for centuries! This is too important to treat like a 25 cent vending machine -- just be amused by whatever pops out!

There are forces, both internal and external, that WILL holler, "Hurry up! Do it NOW!" They are unlikely to be the voice of God. He far more often blesses the investment of appropriate T-I-M-E!

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

thank you for you for your anti violence stance truly. You have no idea what that means to someone like me!!! Is there scripture that you or anyone can give she and I that may answer the question more fully. I just feel confused.

Which question? The original one regarding James 1:27? Is that one still unclear?

What is the balance between submission and independence / capability?

The right / need to exit a relationship with an abusive man?

Something else?

 

[lights12]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

OK this is a serious topic, but you made me laugh with the horizontal reference...Good one... I guess I'm still unsure a little about the part about am I a "widow" really and about the level of submission. What I mean is, I look as the patriarchal leadership role of the man as one as just that, like the captain of the ship, because someone really needs to take the helm or you can't get anywhere. In accordance with that same example, a captain can't do everything on the ship so like any good leader he can determine who else is best at what job and delegates certain things and keeps an eye on things to makes sure that things continue as a well old machine so to speak.
I think I'm mixing metaphors sorry. I mean in my job for instance, I am an RN supervisor and have to evaluate who of my staff is best matched with certain patients and I am responsible for making sure that it works and that my staff is doing the correct techniques and utilizing their training., If they needed additional training or guidance or even reprimanding I was there to do it. My coworkers joke with me because I am the least supervisory, bossy boss in the world, even when I have had to write someone up I always try to do it in a manner of a learning lesson and I never belittle the person. I always try to lead by example and on the rare occasions when I have to be involved in actually say firing someone, even then I try to be as kind as I can....don't get me wrong though if someone does really mess up and goes against MD orders or even my company's compliance standards and puts a patient or another staff member at risk, I can be appropriately harsh... polite, but tough because some things are unacceptable. I also am very big on getting feedback from my staff and my patients because I do think of them like a family and I feel that the more input the better because it gives me a broader sense of things.
Am I completely wrong in my assumptions that that kind of leadership could be attainable in a patriarchal family. I so often see only one end of the spectrum or the other. I certainly would never be with anyone abusive and any follower of Christ should not want to be. I know that nothing in life is perfect of course, this may sound goofy, but I would love to see a family led in the same kind of way that I do at my job. I mean not exactly because it is a different dynamic, but lets just say this and I am not in anyway trying to sound prideful because I'm not, when I have had to say have a serious talk with a staff member about something and they may be someone who has had issues in the past, I am so respectful and will help them to relearn things and am willing to help them to do better that they thank me and they trust me as their supervisor. They, more often than not, never ever need me to speak with them again. They trust my authority and respect me because I respect them.
If I were to meet a man who led that way through trust and love in Christ, I would have not the slightest issue being submissive because I could trust and respect their authority absolutely. That is my biggest prayer to be a part of a family and relationship that has that. Am I in anyway shape or form on the right track, I mean I have had to be the captain, the 1st mate, the galley cook, and every other position on the ship forever and you know what sometimes my ship has gone in circles.....????

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

lights12 wrote,

If I were to meet a man who led that way through trust and love in Christ, I would have not the slightest issue being submissive because I could trust and respect their authority absolutely. That is my biggest prayer to be a part of a family and relationship that has that. Am I in anyway shape or form on the right track, I mean I have had to be the captain, the 1st mate, the galley cook, and every other position on the ship forever and you know what sometimes my ship has gone in circles.....????

My friend, you are as right on track as one can be. Your observations are spot on target. I find your position on marriage and "Biblical patriarchy" to be the heart and soul of the matter. No man has the right to be abusive to God's daughters and none of God's girls should have to put up with an abusive relationship. Many times I read of men lamenting the lack of godly women as potential wives. My observation on that is that there are many godly women, seeking Him regarding marriage and family. The big hitch in the program is the dearth of men who will step up to the plate and be Real men of God, living like Jesus. Too many men among us have been conditioned by our feminist society be passive and not take their rightful place of leadership as men of God. In consequence, some do try to fill that role without having a good image of how to do so. As a result there is often an attempt without success. May I suggest that the single ladies seeking a husband that is a genuine, Christ-like man of God, pray specifically that God would raise up from among His sons in the faith a few good and faithful men. Men who will be bold enough and caring enough to expand their capacity for love to reach out and embrace into his family the ladies that are praying?

Ladies don't give up and don't settle for less than God's choice in your life.

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

I guess I'm still unsure a little about the part about am I a "widow" really and about the level of submission.

Sounds to me as though you are exactly on track. But I see two questions here. Let's see what we can do ...

Are you a "widow". As I understand it, NT Greek used 3 words to describe women. You will find them translated into English as Virgin, Woman, and Widow. What they meant, respectively, was/is: "Never been married", "Married now", and "No longer married whether due to divorce or death". OT Hebrew, however, used 4, differentiating between a what we would normally call a divorcee and a widow. I'd say that by this understanding, and the intent of the writer, you qualify.

Whether you do or don't, according to some legalistic definition, you've been a woman alone for a long, long time, and your Father cares about your loneliness. The rules were made for our benefit, not us for the rules.

Next, level of submission: Some folks fail to differentiate between similar terms. I've found it useful to describe in this manner... There are some folks who want to avoid the responsibility of decision. They'd rather be passive and told what to do all the time. They are "submissive".

There is another sort who have plenty of their own ideas. They may well lead, supervise, direct, etc. in other areas in their own right, and could in the home if needed. But recognizing that order and structure are necessary for a home as well as a business, they treat the structure of the home as if it WAS a business. They may and hopefully do argue heatedly with "management" while a topic is in the discussion phase. But once the responsible party makes a decision, all opposition ceases, and they throw their weight behind making it work. They are "submitted".

Submissive vs submitted. Two similar words, to vastly different concepts. I understand that there are men who actually prefer the former. Imagine THAT! Check out the Prov 31 lady. Which is she?

Yeah, there are men here who try to lead with the least amount of direction possible. And others who consider it necessary to take a VERY involved role. Some think that they are supposed to be the house-band, providing and defending boundaries so that there can be maximum freedom within. Others that they are to drive the team, like on an old stagecoach, with a direct controlling rein on each, um, mare! Feel free to seek one who matches your needs, desires, and tolerance. *grin*

 

[lights12]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Thank you so much Cecil...that really clarified it for me.

Jen M

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Pastor John wrote,

The big hitch in the program is the dearth of men who will step up to the plate and be Real men of God, living like Jesus.

Amen, brother!

There are plenty of men who have an inflated ego, and plenty of men who are "wusses." (Pardon my use of such a crude term...) If each of us men would take Ephesians 5:25 to heart, the single ladies would have an entirely different problem: "So many Godly men, and I can only have one of them! Decisions, decisions..."

Let's get with the program, men.

Wait...on second thought, if all the men who are part of BF would take Ephesians 5:25 to heart, there would be too many of us competing for the available ladies. So keep on doing what you are doing. Maybe we who are truly striving to be real Men of God could each take more than one of the single ladies...

 

[Tali]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Good word, Marine!

"So many good men..." as opposed to "a few good men," now THAT'S a dilemma a single gal could go for! :lol: In yet another retread of the chicken-egg conundrum, I wonder if it will be that there will be a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit that so convicts men to be men that it precipitates the Isa 4:1 scenario, or whether there will be such a crisis coupled with a dearth of "good men" that those are the only ones the "seven" would even consider because the rest are such train wrecks? Proly a combo of both, me thinks, as that's been the usual pattern in church history. (And, of course, such a situation in no way lets women off the hook to be true women, either.) :idea:

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

In yet another retread of the chicken-egg conundrum, I wonder if it will be that there will be a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit that so convicts men to be men that it precipitates the Isa 4:1 scenario, or whether there will be such a crisis coupled with a dearth of "good men" that those are the only ones the "seven" would even consider because the rest are such train wrecks? Proly a combo of both, me thinks, as that's been the usual pattern in church history. (And, of course, such a situation in no way lets women off the hook to be true women, either.) :idea:

If one reads Isaiah 3, the third possibility is that men, in general, will become so fed up with women, in general, that they refuse to enter covenant relationships with them.

Based on reading Isaiah 3, starting at verse 12, then looking around at society, I suspect that all three elements are in play at present.

 

[Tali]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Yikes, Cec!! What a thought! David Barton, (the elder statesmen when it comes to American secular and church history, IMHO,) recently gave an amazing presentation on how true revival always has a walk out in the culture, and not just causing church attendance to swell temporarily when there is a catastrophe, as in 9/11. For example, the Great Awakening went head to head with slavery, the child labor laws came on the heels of true revival, improvements as well as declines (due to secular humanism) in mental health care came as the result of the Latter Rain revival in the late '40s. I wonder if the Isa 3ff scenario you describe will change to the "7 women" scene in Ch 4 because of surgical strikes on the part of the Holy Spirit directed toward feminism and hedonism. Bring on the popcorn, pal!

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

Some wonderful posts and questions answered. The comment the Cecil said about retreats is true. It
is nice to see the people and watch and listen to them in real time. I do understand letting God lead in
this adventure and how easy it would be to hurry it up. Submitting to the idea of polygyny being the answer
to my prayer for companionship and family was the first step. I didn't come up with it out of thin air and it only came up
through research of God's word and lots of prayer. I never thought about polygyny so it definetely was a surprise.
So,,, I know there are Godly men, who God has led to find and take care of the women and children that
have been abandoned. BF is where God led me. I want to thank all of you for your prayers and guidance and
friendship dede

 

[Doc]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

I would just like to take a moment to remind everyone, I am single. (wink)

Doc

 

[lights12]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

I would just like to take a moment to remind everyone, I am single. (wink)

Doc

Doc, this is a message to all the Godly men out there willing to take care of us widows and orphans....................

Luke 11:9
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

You need to knock for any of us to open the door. We don't open the door for everyone, but we won't open if we don't know you're there!!!!

This is me being lighthearted (but with truth)...most of my posts are not!!!

Jen M

 

[Doc]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

knock, knock, knock.

knock knock?

 

[CecilW]

Re: Take care of the widows and orphans,, what does that mea

knock, knock, knock.

knock knock?

M-I-G-H-T have to specify which door you are knocking on, for a specific lovely to open the door ... :lol:

Most do not seem to have Ruth's chutzpah! Plus, your blanket is not centrally located in the country at the moment! :roll: