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Oreslag

Oreslag

Member
Greets All,

I inadvertently responded to a post on the Ladies Only forum under this same topic (http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=3589). Once I realized my error, I simply deleted it and did not save a copy. Since then, I've been asked for the contents of the post.

Unfortunately, I did not save the text. However, the crux of my argument was that God commands women to obey their husbands without condition. I drew attention to Jesus' declaration that no one can serve two masters, and offered the case of Sarah's obedience to Abraham regarding his deception of Pharaoh. In particular, God intervened on her behalf; but never addressed Sarah about the issue nor condemned her for any wrongdoing. To the contrary, Sarah is held out as an example of righteous obedience to her husband in 1 Peter 3.

Likewise, I find no other part of scripture that argues to the conclusion that women should obey their husbands only so long as their opinion is that their husband is doing righteousness. Were this the case, then the woman would be the head because it would be her opinion that mattered in times of disagreement between a man and his wife or wives. This is clearly not the situation declared in scripture.

I also pointed out that in the case of Ananias and Sapphira, this story also reveals that they conspired in this deception whilst her husband was still alive, yet she was not struck down until after she was given an opportunity as a free woman (i.e. widow) under the sole authority of God to do what was righteous. Without the covering of her husband, she perpetuated the deception and was struck down.

I'll try harder to notice the forum I'm posting to in the future.

Best Regards,
Oreslag
 
Although still researching I want to make a basic response.

1. Sapphira was given a chance to tell the truth as a free woman but the scripture states that she did not know that she was a free woman. She was unaware of the death of her husband.

2. No one said that a woman could "not submit" if she believed that her husband was going against God. The subject was if the husband asks the woman to sin. There is a vast difference. If I don't like what my husband does, it is easy to say that he is going against God. That is my opinion and probably a manipulation. I am talking about husbands who tell their wives to lie, Who ask them to cheat, (i.e. taxes, food stamps, welfare etc.) These are definite sins and each of us is accountable for our action

3. As for Sarai and Abrahm, the bible doesn't say their sin was okay.

4. I am guessing that you are of the opinion that if my husband beats me (he doesn't) that I am required to submit to him regardless of my personal safety?

Like I said, hubby and I will research it further, but I do not want to go to my Lord on judgement day and say "But hubby told me to do it that way!" and hope that it suffices.

SweetLissa
 
Genisis 20:1 Sara followed her husband even though he told her to lie and say you are my sister.

Ambimelech took sarah, and God came to Abimelech in a dream stating she was another man's wife. And then Abimelech brought her back to Abraham.

In Genis 26:1 Issac told Rebekah it lie and say you are my sister, they did this becuase they could get killed for their wife's beauty. Rebekah obeyed her husband and said she was his sister.
 
Sweet Lisa wouldnt it be better to follow the commandment to obey and submit in everything, instead of hearing God's rebuke of you didnt do the commandment I asked you to do, which is submit in everything and obey regardless of what you think about it.
 
God helped them out of the situation, and protected Sara

God is so powerful just like with Genisis 20
6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
 
My salvation is on the line. I will be the one who has to face God on judgement day. Hubby is responsible for what he does to me. So if he tries to get me to lie for him he will be accountable for that. But I will also be accountable.
 
Sharonr-
If you are willing to follow your husband in sin, does this mean that he can make you be a prostitute or thief for him? Maybe he will ask to sell drugs for him?

Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not commit adultery


Is one of the 10 commandments.

SweetLissa
 
What makes you think that your husband will put you in such a situation, isnt that where trust comes from, do you trust your husband to lead you in the right direction, I have never heard of a husband telling his wife to do any sin, if anything I trust that God will lead him/us into his will, even if it seems wrong, the bible says dont be wise in your own opinion, I start judging, questioning, and not trusting when I open that door: "I will only follow you if its right according to God's eyes". That will only lead to independence and seperation,

God will deal with that man accordiningly if that was to ever happen, I trust in God for every matter.
My prayer should be God lead my husband into truth, not, Father is this wrong, if so let us not do it, thats a type of manipulation and control.
 
I am not saying that I believe my husband will do any of these things. I am showing some sins that have and can occur within a marriage. In your opinion a Godly wife would participate in these sins because their husband told them to. I am saying that if these extreme things happened a woman would still be Godly to refuse to do them. This is what I mean by sin. Not the generic "I don't think you are following God" but specific sins.

SweetLissa
 
Why even speak of this, if it dont exist, your are only opening up a door for wives who arent that mature to be questioning everything their husband does, b/c yo and I both know the roads and paths are husband's go on can only be done through following the word and trusting God and him fully. I think that if our husband gives us something how can we judge if its sin or not, Eve was first deceived not Adam, we can open up doors to deceive our husbands especially if he is a Ahab who doesn't stand firm. There are many scriptures in the bible about women deceiving their husbands, but what about husbands deceiving there wives. And if you want to bring up acts, they both were in agreement and held accountable. What if she did think it was sin/ Did Sara, or Rebeka think twice no they just followed trusting in God.
 
Because you are on a public forum telling women that they have to submit no matter what. These things may not exist for you or for me, but they do for someone. I have seen it, I have heard of it and I will fight it to the end.


Please don't call me independent. My husband has approved of every response I have given.

SweetLissa
 
Acts 5:9: But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”

Thus, Sapphira was not compelled; but rather agreed to sin in concert with her husband. Regardless of whether or not she knew her husband was struck down, the fact remains that she was not struck down while her husband lived.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35: "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

If God is not a God of confusion, but of peace; why would He use unconditional statements (Ephesians 5:22-24, 1 Peter 3:1-6) to command submission and obedience of a wife to her husband if He actually intended her obedience to be conditional? If a claim of conditional obedience of wife to husband were true, why would the scripture compel a woman to ask her husband at home instead of compelling her to read and interpret His Word for herself? Indeed, why would the scripture demand obedience to a husband at all if He intended for husband and wife (and children for that matter) to obey Him independently of one-another? Why would God appoint the husband as head if He held the wife accountable separately regardless of what the husband demanded of her? If God held woman accountable separately, why did sin not enter the world through Eve rather than Adam?

There are many clear points in scripture that contradict the idea that a wife owes only a conditional obedience to her husband.
 
Sharonr-
If you are willing to follow your husband in sin, does this mean that he can make you be a prostitute or thief for him? Maybe he will ask to sell drugs for him?

Thou shall not steal
Thou shall not commit adultery


Is one of the 10 commandments.
Click to expand...

I dont even believe God will allow this to happen, God is our ultimate ptotection, think of worst caase scenario, but worst case scenario won't happen if God is in the midst, he's our ultimate protector, he always will be. Some stuff jsut happens because its His will.
 
Act 5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
Act 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
Act 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Acts 5:7 clearly says that she did not know what had been done. She had NO IDEA that her husband was dead and therefore this was not a chance for her to come clean. She believed that she was still in submission to her husband (regardless of whether there was collusion or not according to you guys he was responsible.) If she didn't know hubby was dead the she was still obeying the decision that he had made.

David Koresh made his women submit to him no matter what. So did Jim Jones.

SweetLissa
 
So do you think that Sapphira was against what was going on, holding back part of the proceeds?
Do you think she was against what her husband was doing?
The bible clearly states Acts 5:9 ...How is that you have agreed together to test the spirit of the Lord.
 
Right, this is a meaty question, and a good one to discuss. Oreslag has very clearly articulated how scripture states a woman is to obey her husband in all matters. I agree with Oreslag that there is nothing in these passages to suggest that a woman must only obey depending on certain conditions, it simply says obey. If that's what the Bible says, we better believe it.

The problem is that some men take this and use it to abuse their wives, as SweetLissa has pointed out repeatedly. The first thing to be clear of is that such abuse itself is sin. Husbands are to love their wives, not abuse them. Any husband who is using unconditional obedience to harm his wives or cause them to sin will be held accountable for this before God. This forum will certainly never condone such behaviour either.

I cannot think of a single example in scripture of a husband commanding their wife to sin. Neither Sarah nor Rebekah were ordered to sin by their husbands. They were simply told to lie, which is not a sin. The Bible never says "Thou shalt not lie", this is a gross simplification of the 9th commandment that is taught to kids in Sunday School and tends to stick in the back of our minds for the rest of our lives. But it's not Biblical. The 9th commandment actually states "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour", which is a lot more narrow. Lying is not to be encouraged, but is not technically a sin. So Abraham and Isaac were able to command their wives to lie without incurring guilt on either themselves or their wives.

And Ananias and Sapphira were in cahoots with each other. So once again, there's nothing to say Sapphira was obeying her husband in her sin.

So we are left with no scriptural example to draw from to see how God judges a woman who is commanded to sin by her husband. In the lack of an example, we have to come to our conclusions by considering the clear commands of scripture using logic. On the surface, it seems like a command to obey your husband regardless, and the clear commands to not sin, could contradict each other. But God's commands are never contradictory.

If a husband commands his wife to murder someone, what are her options?
- If she obeys him, she sins, because murder is very clearly a sin.
- If she disobeys him, she sins, because the Bible is very clear that she should obey her husband.

So, whatever she chooses to do, she's sinning. But either way she is being forced to sin by her husband - she wouldn't murder if he hadn't commanded her to, nor would she disobey him if he hadn't commanded her to commit a sin she was unwilling to commit. So either way, her husband is responsible for the sinful act. He is her head. He caused the situation. It is he who is at fault and will be held accountable by God.

Remember that when Eve ate the fruit in the garden, nothing happened. It was only when Adam, her head, sinned also, that sin entered the world. And throughout scripture we are told that sin entered the world through Adam, not through Eve. He was responsible for her sin, because he had neither prevented her from sinning nor admonished her when she did sin, but rather allowed her sin and chose to sin also himself. It is therefore entirely scriptural to see a husband as being responsible for a sin that is committed by his wife. This does not necessarily mean that he is responsible for every sin of his wife, we all stand before God alone. But if he causes her to sin, this will clearly fall on his own head, not hers. It would be very unjust for God to punish a woman for sinning when she had no option but to sin.

A wife is therefore able to choose either option, in my view. She is free to obey her conscience, the voice of God in her heart, and do what she feels is the best thing to do in such a difficult situation. She can do whatever feels least wrong, and God will hold her husband accountable for putting her in this situation. So a wife would be free to choose not to murder, despite her husband commanding her to.

This is a very extreme situation. A wife must obey her husband in all matters, that is very clear in scripture, to disobey is sin. But in the very rare case where both choices available to someone are sinful, the above logic will apply.
 
FOLLOWING HIM AWESOME RESPONSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
So a wife would be free to choose not to murder, despite her husband commanding her to.
Click to expand...

Submit- as in surrender, offer to consideration, subject to a specified treatment, surrender or yield oneself to another,
subject- to adjust to authority


why is that the women is double teaming me, and putting me down, when I'm stating scripture.
Women love to voice their opinions to their husbands when that is not of God. This only leads them to question authority when commanded to do something. But on the contrary I don't believe a believing husband will purposely lead his wife to err, but he may not know fully something yet, he is just following Christ on the journey, God may switch up on him, and be like no this is wrong, and then as the wife follows, she will not condemn him but continue to follow him on his journey, this can happen, repeatedly, that's why God told wives to submit.
Following Him I don't totally disagree with that quote up there, I just haven't came across this scriptural. Abraham was willing to obey God, and kill his son, but yet the bible does say do not kill, but still look at Abraham's heart. God always leaves an open door to protect us all, but I don't think women should voice their opinions of what they think about something to their husbands, that only leads to arguments, contention, and war, but if that man loves God, and God is protecting his daughters, I believe God will intervene and come through. definition of discreet- sound in mind, self control, moderate to opinion or passion.....


Following Him
They were simply told to lie, which is not a sin. The Bible never says "Thou shalt not lie"
Click to expand...
Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
Satan is a lier, so how is lying not sin, it depends on the situation, especially when dealing with governing authorities.
 
FollowingHim wrote:
"I cannot think of a single example in scripture of a husband commanding their wife to sin. Neither Sarah nor Rebekah were ordered to sin by their husbands. They were simply told to lie, which is not a sin. The Bible never says "Thou shalt not lie", this is a gross simplification of the 9th commandment that is taught to kids in Sunday School and tends to stick in the back of our minds for the rest of our lives. But it's not Biblical. The 9th commandment actually states "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour", which is a lot more narrow. Lying is not to be encouraged, but is not technically a sin. So Abraham and Isaac were able to command their wives to lie without incurring guilt on either themselves or their wives. "

You say that lying is not a sin but

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If lying is not a sin, why would all liars have their part in the lake with burneth with fire and brimstone?

SweetLissa
 
FollowingHim said:
If a husband commands his wife to murder someone, what are her options?
- If she obeys him, she sins, because murder is very clearly a sin.
- If she disobeys him, she sins, because the Bible is very clear that she should obey her husband.

So, whatever she chooses to do, she's sinning. But either way she is being forced to sin by her husband - she wouldn't murder if he hadn't commanded her to, nor would she disobey him if he hadn't commanded her to commit a sin she was unwilling to commit. So either way, her husband is responsible for the sinful act. He is her head. He caused the situation. It is he who is at fault and will be held accountable by God.
Click to expand...
Well said Samuel! Thank you for making it terse and clear!

Perhaps for completeness I'd add that the only situation in which a husband is not responsible for a wife's sin is when he commands her righteously and she chooses to disobey. Under such a circumstance she is disobedient to her husband (a sin), but he is not responsible because he commanded her to righteousness. Indeed, it is precisely in the case whereby a wife is obstinately unrepentant in such behavior that divorce is a righteous act on the part of the husband (Matthew 19:9).
 
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