Son-in-law breaks dowry covenant with father-in-law

[Edward]

Looking for advice from fathers of daughters and what would you do?

**edit @The Revolting Man his reply made me realize I left out some important info.
Just so you know and I failed to mention this, it was the S.I.L. who came up with the covenant. The F.I.L. asked him "are you sure you want this?" S.I.L. said yes. I am going by what I was told. And I would also like to point out that the S.I.L. is not some young whippersnapper, he is in his mid-30s and this is his second wife. **

So a friend of mine came to me and asked me for my opinion on his son-in-law wanting out of the dowry covenant, he doesn't want out of the marriage, just the covenant with his father-in-law. I would like to point out that not only is this covenant between S.I.L. and F.I.L. but also with YHWH. These are some Scriptures I shared with F.I.L. ...

Numbers 30:1-2 KJV And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded. (2) If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 KJV When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. (5) Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. (6) Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

Deuteronomy 23:21-23 KJV When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. (22) But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. (23) That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

James 5:12 KJV But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Matthew 5:33-37 KJV Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (35) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. (36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. (37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

There is literally nowhere in the Scriptures that I am aware of that gives any man with any covenant, vow, or oath a way out. This is what I know S.I.L. agreed to pay 10% of his wages to F.I.L. for 7 years, I guess he wants to follow in Jacob's footsteps, I don't know. All I know is that Scripture is clear, you must be a man of your word.

So this is what the F.I.L asked me for my opinion on. He doesn't want his S.I.L. to be in a broken covenant, which is already broken. He was thinking of this as a possible solution... Give me my daughter back for a 24-hour period, since you broke the covenant, and then I will give her back with my blessing. S.I.L. will be out of the dowry covenant.

So if you got any Biblical passages that would help out that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Looking for advice from fathers of daughters and what would you do?

So a friend of mine came to me and asked me for my opinion on his son-in-law wanting out of the dowry covenant, he doesn't want out of the marriage, just the covenant with his father-in-law. I would like to point out that not only is this covenant between S.I.L. and F.I.L. but also with YHWH. These are some Scriptures I shared with F.I.L. ...

Numbers 30:1-2 KJV And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded. (2) If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 KJV When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. (5) Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. (6) Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

Deuteronomy 23:21-23 KJV When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. (22) But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. (23) That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

James 5:12 KJV But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Matthew 5:33-37 KJV Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (35) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. (36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. (37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

There is literally nowhere in the Scriptures that I am aware of that gives any man with any covenant, vow, or oath a way out. This is what I know S.I.L. agreed to pay 10% of his wages to F.I.L. for 7 years, I guess he wants to follow in Jacob's footsteps, I don't know. All I know is that Scripture is clear, you must be a man of your word.

So this is what the F.I.L asked me for my opinion on. He doesn't want his S.I.L. to be in a broken covenant, which is already broken. He was thinking of this as a possible solution... Give me my daughter back for a 24-hour period, since you broke the covenant, and then I will give her back with my blessing. S.I.L. will be out of the dowry covenant.

So if you got any Biblical passages that would help out that would be greatly appreciated.

So this is what happens when too much stupid all clumps up in one place; a man reduces his daughter’s and grandchildren’s standard of living for some completely indiscernible reason and a young man risks violating a covenant before God.

You tell this worthlessness old man that his psychotic insistence on his “rights” is one of the most sickeningly ungodly thing I’ve come across in a long time.This “man” doesn’t deserve a daughter or grandchildren. He is allowing a love of money to destroy his family. He’s a fool and and immoral. Why he pretends to care what God thinks about this is beyond me. God thinks they’re both morons who need to repent of this foolishness.

Obviously this foolish young man should keep this ridiculous vow he should have never made. This old man should be ostracized from all polite society until he releases his son in law from this stupid vow.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I’m sorry for the vehemence and venom. This kind of stupidity is what the liberals use to embarrass patriarchy with.

 

[Edward]

So this is what happens when too much stupid all clumps up in one place; a man reduces his daughter’s and grandchildren’s standard of living for some completely indiscernible reason and a young man risks violating a covenant before God.

You tell this worthlessness old man that his psychotic insistence on his “rights” is one of the most sickeningly ungodly thing I’ve come across in a long time.This “man” doesn’t deserve a daughter or grandchildren. He is allowing a love of money to destroy his family. He’s a fool and and immoral. Why he pretends to care what God thinks about this is beyond me. God thinks they’re both morons who need to repent of this foolishness.

Obviously this foolish young man should keep this ridiculous vow he should have never made. This old man should be ostracized from all polite society until he releases his son in law from this stupid vow.

Just so you know and I failed to mention this, it was the S.I.L. who came up with the covenant. The F.I.L. asked him "are you sure you want this?" S.I.L. said yes. I am going by what I was told. And I would also like to point out that the S.I.L. is not some young whippersnapper, he is in his mid-30s and this is his second wife.

 

[steve]

It might be time to get the SIL’s side of the story.

Just sayin

 

[Bartato]

This seems like a stupid mess. Part of the problem is the SIL operating out of the foolish "buy on credit" debt mentality so common among Americans.

He gets the wife now, and then pays for her for seven years. That is the same as buying a fancy new pickup truck.

It would be much better if he just paid the bride price upfront, or didn't pay one at all. It doesn't seem like the FIL wanted a bride price anyway.

If the SIL was loaded, then he should have payed upfront. If he wasn't loaded, but the FIL approved of him anyway, then he should have just let them marry without a bride price.

But for goodness sake, have enough wisdom not to go into debt to get a wife if you don't have to. Owing money to family members really causes a mess.

Dave Ramsey 101

If these guys had wanted to go all "old school bride price", the SIL should have just given the FIL 50oz or so of silver (which would have cost less than $1500), but still shown honor and respect for the FIL and the bride.

Here is one "out". The SIL can give the money to the FIL every year,.and then the FIL can immediately give it back to the SIL and daughter.

 

[Keith Martin]

@Edward, I suppose to some extent it matter (a) what the dowry terms actually were, (b) why dowry was offered, (c) if dowry was required, and (d) what the SIL's financial circumstances were/are, but I don't see stupidity as the primary issue. Integrity is the heart of the matter, and the scriptures you've quoted generally read as structures for fulfillment to ensure that one doesn't back away from integrity.

We also may fear too much whether we receive approval from the world for supporting patriarchy. Having come from the far left and mainstream culture, I can promise you there is absolutely nothing anyone could do to gain support for patriarchy from those folks; it's a concept that only individuals can come to through soul searching.

Determining how intelligence level, wisdom and common sense correlate with whatever dowry arrangement was made is properly a fool's errand. The bottom line to me is that, at the point the contract was made, the SIL thought his bride was worth the price; he said he would pay; so he should pay. Making him pay may be the most loving thing to do for him, because letting him skate then rewards him for having made a bargain and subsequently reneging on his part of the bargain -- and the first law of human behavior is that that which is rewarded will be repeated.

Somewhere in here, too, is contemplation of what the message this reneging sends to the wife in regard to her human worth. Are we saying this situation falls under the equivalent of some kind of lemon law?

 

[Pacman]

Did he vow it UNTO Yah? Or just UNTO his father in law?

If it was a vow only to the father in law then the father in law can release him without any conditions if he chooses to...

 

[Edward]

This seems like a stupid mess. Part of the problem is the SIL operating out of the foolish "buy on credit" debt mentality so common among Americans.

He gets the wife now, and then pays for her for seven years. That is the same as buying a fancy new pickup truck.

We do have an example in the below verse.
Genesis 29:18 KJV And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.

BUT Jacob served Laban for those 7 years and then at the end of those 7 years he was able to...
Genesis 29:20-21 KJV And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. (21) And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

But I get what you are saying because that is kind of how this situation is.

It would be much better if he just paid the bride price upfront, or didn't pay one at all. It doesn't seem like the FIL wanted a bride price anyway.

FIL did want a dowry for his virgin daughter and SIL came up with the price. 7 years 10% of wages. And as I understand it, it didn't matter on the amount of income.

If these guys had wanted to go all "old school bride price", the SIL should have just given the FIL 50oz or so of silver (which would have cost less than $1500), but still shown honor and respect for the FIL and the bride.

Yes I would agree 100%

Here is one "out". The SIL can give the money to the FIL every year,.and then the FIL can immediately give it back to the SIL and daughter.

I will definitely share this with FIL.

 

[Edward]

what the dowry terms actually were,

10% of wages for 7 years and as I understand it, it didn't matter on the amount of income.

why dowry was offered, (c) if dowry was required,

Because FIL wanted a dowry for his daughter as I understand it. Also, SIL came up with the parameters.

The bottom line to me is that, at the point the contract was made, the SIL thought his bride was worth the price; he said he would pay; so he should pay. Making him pay may be the most loving thing to do for him, because letting him skate then rewards him for having made a bargain and subsequently reneging on his part of the bargain -- and the first law of human behavior is that that which is rewarded will be repeated.

Yes, I would agree, let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.

Somewhere in here, too, is contemplation of what the message this reneging sends to the wife in regard to her human worth.

Yes, I would say that would send a clear message to the bride that she is now worthless because he doesn't want to pay the price. Now whether or not she takes it that way is a whole other story. Or she might not even know.

 

[Edward]

Did he vow it UNTO Yah? Or just UNTO his father in law?

If my memory serves me correct and I could be wrong but if I remember correctly it was unto both. It has been a little over a year since they got married. And I know both men personally.

If it was a vow only to the father in law then the father in law can release him without any conditions if he chooses to...

Yes, I would agree with you.

But on the flip side as I mentioned in Keith's comment...
"Yes, I would say that would send a clear message to the bride that she is now worthless because he doesn't want to pay the price. Now whether or not she takes it that way is a whole other story. Or she might not even know."

 

[JimC]

10% of wages for 7 years and as I understand it, it didn't matter on the amount of income.

Because FIL wanted a dowry for his daughter as I understand it. Also, SIL came up with the parameters.

Yes, I would agree, let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.

Yes, I would say that would send a clear message to the bride that she is now worthless because he doesn't want to pay the price. Now whether or not she takes it that way is a whole other story. Or she might not even know.

Could it be the bride pushing SIL to get out of paying her father so that she would have more?

 

[Keith Martin]

Could it be the bride pushing SIL to get out of paying her father so that she would have more?

Definitely something to consider, but then it's just her joining in on the reneging. I know one can get away with it -- that's not the issue, based on our legal and religious mainstream culture -- but it's still an integrity issue to me.

 

[FollowingHim]

Did he vow it UNTO Yah? Or just UNTO his father in law?

If my memory serves me correct and I could be wrong but if I remember correctly it was unto both.

I think you are probably all misunderstanding the situation @Edward and getting far too religious about it.

The vow was made to the FIL, because it was a vow to give money unto the FIL. God was a witness to that vow. It is likely that the words they used when making the vow were different (they may have said they were making it "unto YHWH"), however I think that is words not reality. The contract is entirely between the FIL and SIL, not with YHWH, even if they thought otherwise when making it.

It is therefore entirely the FIL's discretion to forgive and dissolve this contract.

If I am wrong, and the vow was made to YHWH in reality as well as in words, then it was a foolish vow and they should ask Him to forgive it also.

 

[Bartato]

We do have an example in the below verse.
Genesis 29:18 KJV And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.

BUT Jacob served Laban for those 7 years and then at the end of those 7 years he was able to...
Genesis 29:20-21 KJV And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. (21) And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

But I get what you are saying because that is kind of how this situation is.

FIL did want a dowry for his virgin daughter and SIL came up with the price. 7 years 10% of wages. And as I understand it, it didn't matter on the amount of income.

Yes I would agree 100%

I will definitely share this with FIL.

The deal between Jacob and Laban was very different than this one. Jacob paid up front for Rachel. He worked seven years BEFORE he got to marry her.

Way better approach
You could say he got her on layaway, but it wasn't debt.

The reward is sweeter when we save up rather than using debt.

(Of course Laban's treachery complicated all that with Leah, then Rachel, then another seven years of debt labor for Jacob the second time.)

Paying up front is much better. If this man wanted to pay the FIL 70% of his wages for a year (10% x 7 years), he would have been better off working his tail off for a year or eighteen months (overtime and/or extra jobs) and just saved up the money.

The bride would see how much he loved her by the way he worked really hard, scrimped, ate beans and rice, and saved to get her.

She also wouldn't be entering marriage in the house of debt. The newlyweds would have a fresh clean start.

The FIL would see that his SIL is a hard working man with integrity. He appreciates his daughter, and will take good care of her.

I really hate debt, especially between family and friends.

Also my suggestion about the silver is kinda based on Deuteronomy 29 which doesn't directly apply. I wouldn't offer 50. I would at least double that to 100, or more likely offer 500 oz of silver, which is still under $15000, but seems way more meaningful than a stack of Federal Reserve Notes.

 

[PeteR]

The deal between Jacob and Laban was very different than this one. Jacob paid up front for Rachel. He worked seven years BEFORE he got to marry her.

Way better approach
You could say he got her on layaway, but it wasn't debt.

The reward is sweeter when we save up rather than using debt.

(Of course Laban's treachery complicated all that with Leah, then Rachel, then another seven years of debt labor for Jacob the second time.)

Paying up front is much better. If this man wanted to pay the FIL 70% of his wages for a year (10% x 7 years), he would have been better off working his tail off for a year or eighteen months (overtime and/or extra jobs) and just saved up the money.

The bride would see how much he loved her by the way he worked really hard, scrimped, ate beans and rice, and saved to get her.

She also wouldn't be entering marriage in the house of debt. The newlyweds would have a fresh clean start.

The FIL would see that his SIL is a hard working man with integrity. He appreciates his daughter, and will take good care of her.

I really hate debt, especially between family and friends.

Also my suggestion about the silver is kinda based on Deuteronomy 29 which doesn't directly apply. I wouldn't offer 50. I would at least double that to 100, or more likely offer 500 oz of silver, which is still under $15000, but seems way more meaningful than a stack of Federal Reserve Notes.

And, becomes a heritable asset in the family....

 

[Edward]

Could it be the bride pushing SIL to get out of paying her father so that she would have more?

That's a good question.

 

[Edward]

The deal between Jacob and Laban was very different than this one. Jacob paid up front for Rachel. He worked seven years BEFORE he got to marry her.

Yes, that's why I said what I said... "BUT Jacob served Laban for those 7 years and then at the end of those 7 years he was able to...
Genesis 29:20-21 KJV And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her. (21) And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her."

Jacob paid up front for Rachel. He worked seven years BEFORE he got to marry her.

Way better approach

Hands way better approach.