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Preferably in practice, but also in theory, how do you secure a second wife from a modern day thinking father?

raulus

raulus

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This of course is assuming that you need his say to marry his daughter. Which I just assume most of you believe this. Is there any way around this perceived dilemma? Like, possibly educating him(which may not go over well)? A modern thinking man doesn't just want his daughter to join a man's first wife and kids. If I were in his shoes I'd understand the cringe, and anger he would feel. Has anyone succeeded this in practice?
 
b_ce said:
This of course is assuming that you need his say to marry his daughter. Which I just assume most of you believe this. Is there any way around this perceived dilemma? Like, possibly educating him(which may not go over well)? A modern thinking man doesn't just want his daughter to join a man's first wife and kids. If I were in his shoes I'd understand the cringe, and anger he would feel. Has anyone succeeded this in practice?
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Find a woman with a father who believes the truth. Though I think, in this day and age, we are much more likely to find a woman with no covering. I'd actually be curious to know what people think on this since I've never given it much thought. Is permission from a father who has abdicated his authority over his daughter required? @NickF @The Revolting Man @ABlessedMan @frederick @FollowingHim @PeteR
 
I wish I knew the best answer to this. We took our second wife into our family in 2009. For some reason I was oblivious to the rift this would cause between myself and my first Mother-In-Law, whom I loved and still love dearly. Over the past year though we have spoken over the phone and even told each other that we love each other, but I am still not directly invited to her home. Some of this I now realize was due to a traumatic event in her younger years, where her husband left her and her children for her younger cousin. Realizing that made me realize that she felt a sort of "flashback" when the new marriage occurred. She thought, and more importantly, she FELT it meant my marriage to her daughter would be diminished, which is in direct contradiction to the requirements of scripture.
Trying to "directly educate" a man older than yourself doesn't usually go well, and often for good reason. You can certainly be "well-armed" for the Biblical side of a discussion (I recommend a copy of "Man and Woman in Biblical Law" by Tom Shipley for your own library if not for discussion).
The greatest argument you will have though is more through the demonstration of how his daughter will be treated, the kind of thing he doesn't have to be told about but can actually see. I think this is why my Mother-In-Law has come around once again to speaking with me and telling me she loves me, because enough time has passed for her to see that my love for her daughter has only grown, and that our Second, instead of being a hindrance, also loves her and cares for her.
I don't know if any of this helps at all, but regardless, God bless you and good luck :-)
 
phaedrus said:
Find a woman with a father who believes the truth.
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This is best
phaedrus said:
Though I think, in this day and age, we are much more likely to find a woman with no covering.
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Yes, mature women often have none.
phaedrus said:
I'd actually be curious to know what people think on this since I've never given it much thought.
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I’ve given it a lot of thought and studied a bit, however I haven’t come to a good solid biblical answer. Since I’m not 100% sure, I default to the safest scripture based answer that keeps me out of hot water with God.
phaedrus said:
Is permission from a father who has abdicated his authority over his daughter required?
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If he has abdicated authority, she is a free agent. I would at least get the acknowledgment from the father that I was moving forward with pursuing a relationship with his daughter. If he doesn’t forbid, or nullify her vows, it stands.

If she is not a free agent and her father claims authority, I would only proceed with his permission.

That’s my personal moral conviction.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with marrying a virgin without her father's permission if her father is an unbeliever and doesn't want to follow the truth. In this situation I would say to her she must hate her father and mother in order to follow Christ (Luke 14:26). What say you guys?
 
phaedrus said:
Is permission from a father who has abdicated his authority over his daughter required?
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Personally, I feel that if a father says to his daughter "it's your choice who you marry, it's nothing to do with me", or words to that effect, he has given permission for any man to marry her. No further permission is needed - and it would not be forthcoming anyway (he's not going to give his permission because he doesn't believe he needs to).

But if a man does believe his daughter needs his permission to marry, you need his permission.
NickF said:
If he has abdicated authority, she is a free agent. I would at least get the acknowledgment from the father that I was moving forward with pursuing a relationship with his daughter. If he doesn’t forbid, or nullify her vows, it stands.

If she is not a free agent and her father claims authority, I would only proceed with his permission.
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Exactly.

Off-gridinwv said:
I wouldn't have a problem with marrying a virgin without her father's permission if her father is an unbeliever and doesn't want to follow the truth. In this situation I would say to her she must hate her father and mother in order to follow Christ (Luke 14:26). What say you guys?
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What are you meaning when you say "the truth" - Christianity or plural marriage?
  • If you mean Christianity - most non-Christian fathers in this day and age tell their daughters they can marry who they like and don't think it's their role to give permission. If that's the case, you're free to marry her following the above reasoning, no need to take Luke 14:26 out of context to find a justification.
  • If you mean plural marriage - no, you can't dismiss her father's headship over her just because you disagree with her father's theology.
 
I meant Christianity and more specific girls who are raised in a religious cult. What about the scenario of God delivering girls from a religious cult and giving them to a righteous man?
 
That is a very niche and extreme situation, and the old legal saying applies: "hard cases make bad law". When we are talking about any issue it is easy to jump to a hypothetical extreme that seems to require an exception to the rule. And maybe, in that extreme, an exception is justified (though hard to find in scripture). But it is not a situation most of us are likely to encounter, so it doesn't really inform our actual decisions.

The risk with thinking too hard about such situations is that it is easy under the influence of romantic emotion to misconstrue any woman's sob story to think that it is a situation that is so exceptional that the scriptural principles should be ignored. Better to stick to the principles rather than trying to find reasons to not follow them.
 
FollowingHim said:
That is a very niche and extreme situation, and the old legal saying applies: "hard cases make bad law". When we are talking about any issue it is easy to jump to a hypothetical extreme that seems to require an exception to the rule. And maybe, in that extreme, an exception is justified (though hard to find in scripture). But it is not a situation most of us are likely to encounter, so it doesn't really inform our actual decisions.

The risk with thinking too hard about such situations is that it is easy under the influence of romantic emotion to misconstrue any woman's sob story to think that it is a situation that is so exceptional that the scriptural principles should be ignored. Better to stick to the principles rather than trying to find reasons to not follow them.
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Yes the reason I'm asking in this matter is because I'm in such a situation. Let me explain. If an eighteen year old virgin leaves her father's house and the cult wherein she was raised and gets saved under my ministry do I then send her back to her father to be brainwashed into hell? In my reasoning I say no,I feel I should be her covering and teach her the Word but I also know that in the multitude of counselors there is safety which is why I'm asking you guys.
 
Off-gridinwv said:
Yes the reason I'm asking in this matter is because I'm in such a situation. Let me explain. If an eighteen year old virgin leaves her father's house and the cult wherein she was raised and gets saved under my ministry do I then send her back to her father to be brainwashed into hell? In my reasoning I say no,I feel I should be her covering and teach her the Word but I also know that in the multitude of counselors there is safety which is why I'm asking you guys.
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How’s about make a disciple of Yah out of her and empower her personal spiritual/growth for a while without adding the pressure of another life-altering decision so early in her separation from the cult.
I know that you will risk losing her, but not giving her some space makes you look like a predator.
 
Off-gridinwv said:
Yes the reason I'm asking in this matter is because I'm in such a situation. Let me explain. If an eighteen year old virgin leaves her father's house and the cult wherein she was raised and gets saved under my ministry do I then send her back to her father to be brainwashed into hell? In my reasoning I say no,I feel I should be her covering and teach her the Word but I also know that in the multitude of counselors there is safety which is why I'm asking you guys.
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That is definitely NOT enough detail.
 
Let me be clear, I'm not pursuing these young girls, but the handwriting on the wall says that many will be saved under my ministry and no I have no intention of marrying them right away. What I'm talking about is if they come and want to be a part of my ministry and maybe in time if it's the Lord's will I might marry some. Also many in this cult have been victims of sexual abuse and incest.
 
A father’s permission is best practice but it’s not required for a valid one flesh relationship. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THIS DEBATE HERE. We can resurrect the old threads or start a new one. I’m just offering an alternative answer to the question. A father’s consent is highly desirable and brings tangible benefits and maybe even blessings but it’s not a requirement.
 
Off-gridinwv said:
Let me be clear, I'm not pursuing these young girls, but the handwriting on the wall says that many will be saved under my ministry and no I have no intention of marrying them right away. What I'm talking about is if they come and want to be a part of my ministry and maybe in time if it's the Lord's will I might marry some. Also many in this cult have been victims of sexual abuse and incest.
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Please don't misunderstand my comment but girls being victims of sexual abuse is not restricted to the weird cults. It's mainstream in public schools and in the world around us. I posted in another thread a little while ago about a discussion I was having with one of the church leaders here and we were talking about women/mothers working outside the home. He commented expressing his concern about the number of young pregnant women in the church and pregnancies which were the result of incest. This is a "conservative baptist" church leader telling me this. Read the news and you'll find no shortage of stories of abused boys and girls in different religious groups so you're not dealing with anything new. My own experience tells me God can (and does) save people out of all kinds of cult backgrounds with all kinds of abuses in their history. He does that in spite of how bad the person and their history might appear. They might be in the most deceived and violent situation but that doesn't mean they're beyond God's saving and sanctifying grace. For example, just read how He saved Saul of Tarsus in Acts Chapter 9! There's nothing to hard for God. However, it's never right for us to set aside the clear instruction from God's Word and deliberately do something contrary to what He says. Disobeying God never works well, so do as He says and trust Him for the best outcome for the young women you encounter. Shalom
 
Off-gridinwv said:
Let me be clear, I'm not pursuing these young girls, but the handwriting on the wall says that many will be saved under my ministry and no I have no intention of marrying them right away. What I'm talking about is if they come and want to be a part of my ministry and maybe in time if it's the Lord's will I might marry some. Also many in this cult have been victims of sexual abuse and incest.
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But you're thinking about it already. This means it would be very quick for you to be persuaded to go in this direction.

This is how Satan takes a Godly desire to care for women, and uses it to discredit God's servants. The temptation of Godly sex is one that Satan uses to great effect.

To illustrate, and I know this is a different situation, I'm illustrating a principle not accusing you of something different: How many Christian men have counselled married women in difficult situation - and ended up persuading them to leave their husband and go to them instead (either in an affair or marriage)? This is very common in the "dark underbelly" of the Christian church. It's how Joseph Smith got many of his wives, and continues today, I have encountered it more than once in my own life (not just with polygamists, with mainstream Christians). And every person who does it, once it is found out, is completely discredited and their current work for the Kingdom is destroyed.

Now here you are, helping young girls from a dangerous background, who are coming to you because you represent a safe place for them. What do you think will happen if you married a couple of them? Suddenly, you will not be perceived as a safe place for these girls to go to. You will be seen as just another cult, just another sex-crazed man seeing an opportunity to talk women into your bed through religion. And you will no longer be able to do the work you are doing for God, because nobody will trust you any more.

Of course, you haven't shared much detail. Obviously reality is very complex. I'm just pointing out how this sort of thing can be twisted to destroy good Christian ministries.
 
The above are my exact sentiments and concerns.
 
Good points but I also know that any time you're doing anything for Christ people are going to talk and falsely accuse you and the criticism usually comes from those who are spiritually slothful and would just as soon the whole world would die and go to hell before they would sacrifice their comfortable lifestyle any to win a soul
 
The Revolting Man said:
A father’s permission is best practice but it’s not required for a valid one flesh relationship. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THIS DEBATE HERE. We can resurrect the old threads or start a new one. I’m just offering an alternative answer to the question. A father’s consent is highly desirable and brings tangible benefits and maybe even blessings but it’s not a requirement.
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Could you point me to this old thread that you speak of? I'd like to see how this debate played out. Before I made this post I tried to find something like this throughout the forum but was to no avail.

I guess my main concern is, will a marriage be honored by God without having the father of the bride's acceptance? Is there scripture to support such an idea?
 
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