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Our first church meeting about it....

Paul not the apostle

Paul not the apostle

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We are having our first meeting with the church leadership tomorrow at 7 pm. The purpose of the meeting is to find out where my heart is concerning plural marriage. I was asked to come to explain to the church pastor, elders, etc. why I think that it is ok to say that plural marriage is Biblical. I was asked to not talk about this topic with anyone and I responded with a no. So, we are meeting. These are all God fearing men that truly want to serve the Lord in every way and I ask that you pray for open Godly communication.

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. I wish you could all be there to see the looks on their faces when my wife walks in the room with me. :o
 
Paul, as somebody's who's "been there, done that", I will be praying for you. In fact, the Orlando homegroup will be meeting at exactly that hour, and we will pray for you as a group. I hope it goes well, remember to be respectful and that while you can easily "win" the Biblical arguments, that alone does not change too many hearts or minds (as many of us have seen) - and sometimes the "how can this not fall in category of each believer hearing from God for himself? - since it's clearly not a salvation issue" tact can be useful.

Let us know how it goes.
 
Paul not the apostle said:
We are having our first meeting with the church leadership tomorrow at 7 pm. The purpose of the meeting is to find out where my heart is concerning plural marriage. I was asked to come to explain to the church pastor, elders, etc. why I think that it is ok to say that plural marriage is Biblical. I was asked to not talk about this topic with anyone and I responded with a no. So, we are meeting. These are all God fearing men that truly want to serve the Lord in every way and I ask that you pray for open Godly communication.

Thanks,
Paul

P.S. I wish you could all be there to see the looks on their faces when my wife walks in the room with me. :o
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I hope all went well for you
 
I appreciate your prayers. I do need a little bit to sort out everything that happened and all of the residual along with that. I am also concerned about "friends" that might be trolling this site and feeding info to our church leadership about us in the name of "helping" us, so I need to make a decision on what to post.

As far as the "debate" side of the meeting is concerned, I do have some things that I would like to bring up in a different forum, in order to get input. I will say that I had never fully realized the extent that I differ from my fellow churchgoers and pastor, etc. in the subjects of what I believe about God's character, His law, and how to interpret or read His Word. I found myself last night saying things like "Well, you CAN interpret that verse that way, but that is not the context of that passage." And the general response was that verses can mean many different things depending on how we want to apply them. This is a new concept for me, and scary for me as well. I always have believed that God's word would interpret itself if compared with other passages. If I don't understand something, then I can compare it with other text and it will be clear. I have never thought that I could take a verse and put it by itself and come up with different ways to apply it to a lot of different life situations. Or that I could just on my own, without God's direct approval, say that a verse means more than what is specifically says in the Bible. An example of this is in 2 Chron. 24:1-3 where it says that Joash did what was right in the sight of the Lord all the days of Jehoiada the priest. Some would say that the meaning was that it only applied to his kingly duties and not his personal life. And also that later on the priest who gave him the wives fell away from God, etc. My question is where in the Bible does it say that? I know it doesn't. Again, they can SAY that is what it means, but that does not make it an accurate interpretation.

However, since this is the prayer request section, please pray for my wife. One of the reasons that I was asked to meet had to do with 4 or 5 comments that had allegedly been made by my wife regarding plural marriage and speaking in tongues, etc. All of them were completely untrue or a purposeful twisting of what she said in an attempt to discredit her. She feels betrayed by the "anonymous" persons that brought them before the leadership of the church without coming to us first to talk about it. We do feel that the reason we were not approached by the people is that they knew that they were doing something wrong. We do not think that the leadership is willing to go with us to those people to see why those things were said or where the confusion came from, based on their unwillingness to reveal who the persons were.

Thanks for the prayers.
 
She feels betrayed by the "anonymous" persons that brought them before the leadership of the church without coming to us first to talk about it. We do feel that the reason we were not approached by the people is that they knew that they were doing something wrong. We do not think that the leadership is willing to go with us to those people to see why those things were said or where the confusion came from, based on their unwillingness to reveal who the persons were.
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Ask them what their "interpretation" of Matthew 18:15-17 is.

Perhaps it is not surprising that so many of the other commandments of our Savior are ignored as well, in the interest of preserving "tradition". We must all continue to pray that such be given "eyes to see" before it is too late.

Blessings,
Mark
 
I second Mark's question. Though I understand what you're church is like, I have seen it too much. If someone has a problem with someone else it needs to be openly addressed. It is very optimistic to think it would actually happen though. You comment about people lurking on the site, if only they would join in the conversations and postings on all matters perhaps some ground could be gained and understanding established.

Our prayers are with you in this endeavour.
 
Dear Paul,

Just letting you know, we were praying for you and your wife from the Southern Command in Orlando on Monday night.

It took a great deal of courage for both you and your wife to present yourself before local church leadership to respond to your beliefs. I know that the courage did not come from you, but from the Holy Spirit.

What concerns me, from when I first heard about the upcoming 'meeting', and thus the subsequent posts, is that though you and your wife were presenting yourselves in a humble spirit in true Christian submission to spiritual authority, the 'fix was in', so to speak. It did not seem to me to be an open conversation about the issue at hand, but rather a hearing to have you respond to allegations.

This concerns me because this is the third such incident that has been related to me of believers who have come into the light of plural families that have been called before a local church body to respond to this issue.

What this means, I am not sure. What response should a believer have when that are called to such a meeting, I am still trying to work out myself. As of yet, there has not been a incident when the local congregation, having learned of a believer's view on plural marriage, has extended to them the 'right hand of fellowship'. More often than not, it is the 'left foot of fellowship'.

I believe in spiritual authority, and that we should submit to it in all cases. However, we ultimately submit to Christ first, and then those He has placed in authority over us. In those cases of conflict, Jesus trumps all others.

I think each believer is going to have to come to terms regarding their belief in plural marriage and the impact on the relationship to a local congregation that belief has. Questions that need to be asked:

-Is my belief in plural marriage a stumbling block or point of division for the local body?
-is my belief in plural marriage in contradiction to my ability to submit to local spiritual leadership?
-are there other opportunities for fellowship with believers who hold to the view of plural marriage?

Anyway, these are just some rambling 5 in the morning thoughts. Just letting you know we were thinking and praying for you.

Blessings,
 
Paul not the apostle said:
We do feel that the reason we were not approached by the people is that they knew that they were doing something wrong. We do not think that the leadership is willing to go with us to those people to see why those things were said or where the confusion came from, based on their unwillingness to reveal who the persons were.

Thanks for the prayers.
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Your experience and comments rip my emotions around in such a flurry of different directions that I don’t know which one to address, Paul.

How I wish your experience was rare in the body of Messiah. Unfortunately it is very common. I know what the scriptures say about not neglecting the fellowship of other believers, but when I read of accounts such as this, a seething anger builds up in me and a resolution arises to never put my family in that position in any church body.

Your meekness in this ordeal is commendable. I was far too haughty to approach my old congregation with the issue, and chose to flee rather than confront, and to live out my days un-churched and un-pastored rather than submit to a body I had less trust in than I did my godless auto mechanic.
 
I share your emotions of righteous anger mixed with sadness, as well as your concern about haughtiness and pride, RA. In a similar situation, actually more than one ;) such over the last year or so, I was led again to study the story of Phineas (Pinchas) -- who drove a spear through Kosbi and her lover in the sight of all Israel.

In one of the arguably most difficult and intriguing stories in all of the Bible, God responded to that "ZEAL" for Him with His 'covenant of peace'.

The challenge for us is to learn to walk so completely within His will (the path is indeed "Narrow!) that we operate in ZEAL without succumbing to wrath - or any of the other similar sin which lies "crouching at [our] door", and whose desire is for us!



...Perhaps this is time to spin off another thread - and arguably one that is, IMHO, at the very root of what a gathering place such as this one can accomplish:

There comes a time when we are to "Come out of her, My people", and be not partakers of the plagues which are coming. I have long believed that this process was to begin with, at least for me and my house, a "coming out" from the 501-c(3) "church" which is created by, and under, Caesar. But I have come to believe that such is only the start of what He intends.


Blessings,

Mark
 
Mark, Paul and all,

That is why I am a big advocate of the home fellowship groups that are popping up in Biblical Families. It is my opinion that all believers need to be in relationship with other believers. I know in my own life that it has become increasingly difficult to feel at ease in some services now. Add to that, that I am a worker bee when it comes to ministry, and want to be actively involved in a local body. Well, that involvement will only go so far once you advocate plural families. You can be an ex-con, a former drug addict, a former pornographer, and with repentance qualify for ministry; but God help you if you are a former monogamist..... :lol:

I guess I am a bit torn between two worlds, tho. You need to understand that I was involved in denominational ministry for over twenty years. For me to say to someone that they should leave a local congregation is thinking way outside of my previously programmed box. However, I think that it is evident with Paul's example here, as well as others, that this is not the time that those that advocate plural marriage will be readily accepted.

My advice and thinking is, however, to go through the steps, just as Paul did here on this post. I still think it is important that when we are asked about our beliefs, that we stand ready to answer. Perhaps one day, in just such a setting, a pastor and a church board will suddenly realize, "You know something, you're right!"

But I think one day is still a ways off.....

Still praying for this situation. Who knows what God is up to in the heart of the congregation?

Blessings,
 
Thanks guys...

for all of your responses and encouragement. When we prayed on the way to the meeting, I remember tellling God that I knew the most important thing was to honor Him and to show love to my brothers. I also told Him I knew that I was not going to change anyone's mind on the topic. I did feel like He told me that I would be able to tell during the meeting if any of them were going to have the "UH OH, this guy just might be reading this whole thing correctly, now what am I going to do" moment. I think that happened.

It was interesting to see first hand the reactions to the verses and arguments that prove the legitimacy of biblical polygamy. We have all talked about the arguments, read all of the commentaries, looked at all of the scripture, and thought about what it would be like to debate it with our fellowship. It was different than what I expected, but they did use a lot of the same arguments. Many kudos to those that I have learned from on here and other sites. I will admit that I did have animosity for those who don't see this as a biblical truth. I felt like they just didn't get it and I assumed they would have animosity for me. My animosity is gone now and replaced with compassion and more love. After seeing their reactions and their facial expressions to what the Bible actually says, I feel bad for them, not in a pity kind of way, but in sorrow. They know that the arguments are solid, but they just can't let go of their past. I saw them struggle spiritually when they realized some of the conclusions for calling polygamy sinful. They definately don't want to say that God gave sin, promotes sin, tolerates sin, causes someone to sin, or sets His children up to sin. I do feel that to challenge this truth fully, a believer would really have to challenged God's perfectness. I do think that this concept started to sink in a little.

FYI, I did get the approval for another meeting with the group. I am actually getting into this a little more because it is liberating to be able to talk about it, even if they are not all on board like me with this topic.
 
Blessings, Paul, and our prayers will continue to be that He would "take a coal from His altar and touch it to your lips," that you might boldly "speak His Word, and His Word only".

I have had some wonderful blessings in such discussions. And as regulars here can testify, I have also fallen short and let anger take over. :oops:

Take your Bible with you, of course, and have it indexed or marked; the better you know the Scripture, the better you will be able to give an account for your faith. But, as you seem to already well-understand, the most important thing is to be led by Him, and stay in prayer.

I think as well that it is very important to understand proper authority in such a situation (as has been on my mind today. ;) ) We are warned to "touch not Mine anointed" -- but that warning is admittedly a bit ambiguous. I try to proceed with caution in the presence of such warnings, and avoid wherever possible even the appearance of public confrontation with pastors, priests, rabbis, or prelates which might tend to undermine them in the presence of those who presumably are SUBMITTED to their authority.

But you yourself are given much authority in Christ Yeshua, which does not require earthly ordination, or Caesar's license -- to "tread on serpents and scorpions", "cast out demons", and even to cast down inappropriate vows of your daughters or wives -- if you do so in accord with His Word.

Do not attempt to sow discord among the sheep of another, or usurp authority not given by Him. But be equally careful not to yield what God has delegated to you, as head of your house, to anyone else. There is "a time to keep silence, and a time to speak", but leave the results up to Him. If -- after having spoken His Truth boldly -- they still do not have "ears to hear", you know you can wipe the dust off of your feet and "come out of her".

May God guide you and bless you,

Mark
 
You know, its a funny comment Mark. I've never felt an ethical problem with taking down pastors or people prominent in a church. There are many people both in authority in a church or just generally an elder in Christ that I treat with specific respect, but I have never had respect for someone for their title alone. To me someone being called a pastor does not make it so, and if it is well evidenced that someone with such a title is not matured (or scripturally should not be in that position), then all the more aggressive the take down.

Still, I know even those I could never deny the anointing of will have problems with poly when the time comes for me. As a lifetime pugilist I've learned to keep my cool and still care about the people I am contending with, but it isn't easy for me, or for anyone. Congratulations Paul on continuing to care and have a heart for them in this situation. That is a very important accomplishment and something you should work to maintain. Caring both about God and them is the way to keep from sowing discord and causing arbitrary division. Mark is right to point out the danger there.

God bless, I hope meeting two goes well.
 
You know, its a funny comment Mark. I've never felt an ethical problem with taking down pastors or people prominent in a church. There are many people both in authority in a church or just generally an elder in Christ that I treat with specific respect, but I have never had respect for someone for their title alone.
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I understand, Jair, and don't actually disagree. It's not respect for a title, and it's not a natural inclination of mine; I have often expressed the opposite - a disdain for the entire 501-c(3) establishment. But it is a respect for what God has to say, and an admission that He knows, and I don't. I will admit as well that I have many times learned something from a teacher that I had major disagreements with, or even little respect for.


Blessings,
Mark
 
I will admit as well that I have many times learned something from a teacher that I had major disagreements with, or even little respect for.
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Yeah, me too.

Really its not the people I disagree with that bother me, its the proud ones.
 
Sorry I was out of the loop for a few days on the discussion. Isn't it amazing how much God is teaching US about OURSELVES in this process?

It truly is a beautiful thing....

Blessings,
 
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