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Marriage vs Civil Unions

Doc

Member
Real Person
***repost of an article from the web*** Doc

Since 1989, a number of developed nations have enacted laws establishing civil unions, or domestic partnerships, allowing this contract of commitment to gay, and sometimes heterosexual, couples. In a last ditch attempt to save the sanctity of marriage as ordained by the God of the Bible perhaps it is time to indeed separate church and state.

There is no way that two men or two women can be married. Even if four of our United States say they can, it is an argument of semantics, not fact. On the issue of gay unions, the horse has already left the barn and the only question before us now is how to save the barn itself, thus protecting the very rule of law.

Scriptural Christians know that gay marriage is not possible. The non-Christians who occupy these fifty states with the scriptural Christians do not share this view. Neither group has the right to impose their beliefs on the other. Paul and Peter argued a very similar point in the book of Acts. The 'law' against homosexuality applies to Christians, not to anyone else.

So, in order to maintain the sanctity of marriage, may I suggest we abolish marriage altogether from the law books of the United States? Rather, let us offer civil unions or domestic partnerships to any two adults, regardless of gender. Marriage may still be offered through churches or religions once the civil union is on the books. In this way the rules for who is eligible to be married are not subject to judicial review and the process of both entering into and getting out of a marriage may remain scriptural.

Civil unions that apply to all must have rules to combine property upon the contract's inception. Rules must also apply when the contract is rendered null in a court of law. Marriages that exist under a religious law may well prove stronger than those yielding today's 50% divorce rate.

Pastors and ministers would not be faced with the question of performing marriages for any couple that does not meet the criteria of their church or religion. Civil union ceremonies may be planned at the discretion of those entering into the contract once the relevant terms have met the laws of the state. There would be no issue of hate speech no matter which side is speaking, the scriptural Christian or the non.

By banning civil marriage we may return the holy estate of matrimony to the pedestal it rightly deserves for people of faith in God. If we're going to issue licenses to 'Party A' and 'Party B' let's not add insult to injury by calling it a marriage. Each 'party' will have to answer for their own actions, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheist or agnostic.

In the meantime, while we may mourn for a nation that was but is no more, we can still strengthen and edify each other to the glory of God. We can still join together as citizens to try and retain the rule of law, which is the heartbeat that keeps the United States of America alive.

Lynn Baber is a Christian writer, recovering business consultant and retired equine professional. She shares the lessons learned in thirty-five years at the business table and round pen with her clients and readers. Highly credentialed in issues of leadership, customer relations and most things equine, Lynn has a unique perspective not found elsewhere. Lynn is the author of two books, the latest expected in early 2010.

Visit Lynn at http://LynnBaber.net or http://AmazingGrays.us

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Lynn_Baber
 
Thanks, Doc - I think. ;)

It's always interesting to me to read an article by a "Christian" which never really references the Bible (or worse, gets it wrong):

The 'law' against homosexuality applies to Christians, not to anyone else.

I suspect the Canaanites might hold a lesson or two for him. It seems he's forgotten (or ignored) that whole unpleasantry about a land which "vomits out its inhabitants"!
(Not that the other issues of depravity that were identified there have been neglected in this land, either. :twisted: )

But it's the self-destructive conclusions that really get to me in pieces like this one. (It's more than a bit reminiscent of a nation imploding from dishonest and unconstitutional fake money, drowning in government-sponsored debt. Solution? What else? Give the same criminals who caused the problem, failed stop the carnage, and then lied to cover it up, not only MORE license to steal, but unlimited power!)

In a last ditch attempt to save the sanctity of marriage as ordained by the God of the Bible perhaps it is time to indeed separate church and state. [to somehow "protect the rule of law"]

Yeah, that'll do it.

Such people need to be reminded -- over and over if necessary -- that the single Right that still remains is the "right to contract" (it's protected multiple times in the Constitution, and in that of every State as well). You can put together a contract to buy property or insurance with or for anyone you want. You can "trade essential Liberty for a little temporary security", exchange God-given Rights for government-issue "civil liberties", freedom for a public "safety net", and even make a deal with the devil.

The only thing a man COULDN'T do was "lie with a man as with a woman", call it marriage, and force his neighbor not only to approve of it, but subsidize* it.

The solution starts with recognizing the real problem!

It was never about "coming out of the closet" - it was about forcing those who believed the Word of God to APPROVE and even PAY FOR what was in the closet!

Here is where the subtle difference between God's Law and man's supposed 'law' is so important. Remember that we are commanded repeatedly not to "add to" or "subtract from" what is Written. This is why:

...may I suggest we abolish marriage altogether from the law books of the United States? Rather, let us offer civil unions or domestic partnerships to any two adults...

There's no "rather" at all! Because there is NO PLACE WHATSOEVER for "marriage" in the "law books of the United States!" Read Article 1 of the Constitution for the United States! That government created by that document has NO POWER WHATSOEVER to define, regulated, prohibit, license, or even talk about "marriage" at all. Specifically, there are eighteen specific enumerations of delegated powers in Article I, Section 8, and marriage isn't remotely one of them. (Coincidentally, education isn't either, as people recognized not too many years ago, to similar effect.)

I submit that this is a good example of why God commands man not to "add to" His Written commandments, and why Satan has learned just what an effective tool for destruction it is.

"Christians" will never understand how to "fix the world" without realizing first where it went astray. That starts with recognizing the clear instruction of the Master they claim to love and obey, Who told the hypocrites that "by your tradition", you have made the commandments of God of "no effect". (Matthew 15, Mark 7. Romans 3 shows that Paul understood.)

The problem is that once a land becomes so perverse that its "iniquity is complete", God has repeatedly warned that more direct action will be taken. Somewhere before then, the wise and prudent among His people will "hear the shofar" and take warning. At that point, the right answer is to come out of her, My people...


Blessings in Him,

Mark


-------------------------------
* And here I note that as a patriarch, I do not seek my neighbor's assent, much less seek to steal from him for my support. The only support that ultimately matters much, outside of my own house, is God's.
 
It's Taxes

As long as we tax people on the basis of their income, the government at all levels will be involved in marriage, constitutional, or not.
 
Taxing licensed marriage...

If you take Caesar's license, you get his tax deductions. It's just another of the many blessings he bestows...

But, as always, it's ultimately about control - and who we serve.

Truly "nothing new under the sun".
 
This topic gave me a whole new way of looking at things. You know how the news is always talking about the decline of marriages in the US? Well, actually if we get our way, then the decline of "marriage" as the government calls it will continue to fall because those numbers are based on "legal marriage." Hmmmm. I never thought of it that way before. Thanks guys.

SweetLissa
 
Mark,

Like you, I also noticed the lack of Bible from this "Christian" perspective, but it still had some good food for thought.

Blessings,

Doc
 
You're giving THEM license.

Yes, but if you don't take "Caesar's License" you give him cause to enter your home. Have you forgotten YFZ? If you're polygynous, you break the law. The fact that this is difficult to prove in court isn't important. They can come in, just as they did at YFZ and the "Manna Storehouse" and turn your lives INSIDE OUT and take it all away and look through it for years and years to see if you did something else wrong, that they can charge you with.

You gave them probable cause, and they will use it against you. If you don't need "Caesar's License" more of us need to show up, wives in tow, on Sunday Morning in mainstream churches. I don't see any of that.
 
You can't take Ceasar's license with more than one, so if you are polygynous you still give them the same rights that they had for YFZ. And if there had been no children then no one would have done a thing at YFZ.

SweetLissa
 
Yes, but if you don't take "Caesar's License" you give him cause to enter your home.

Hardly, HM. But the sad truth is that in a police state, no cause is necessary - probable or otherwise. (Read just a bit of the misnamed "Patriot Act", for but one example. Even years ago, on radio, I used to joke to people that their kids would one day see something called a "warrant" in some museum and wonder what that was about. And are you old enough to remember when "warrantless searches" had a NAME, and were VOLUNTARY?)

My own story is up here elsewhere as well. Suffice it for now to say that what were once accepted as "God-given Rights" are now called "loopholes".

What Hosea said remains true, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..." (and what follows is even MORE important! Hosea 4:6) But HAVING knowledge, and even walking circumspectly, is no guarantee. Job tells a complex story.

This difference is subtle - and many people don't want to understand it, but it will become a matter of life and death at some point:

To choose life, and to choose to serve God, does NOT mean that Satan will not try to attack His servants. We were never promised exemption from persecution here because we follow Yeshua and His Word. Indeed, the "world will hate you for My sake", He warned. But the converse must not be ignored: we should NOT expect God's blessing or protection if we choose to serve 'another master'. Such folks "have their reward" - here and now.



Blessings,

Mark



Aside: YFZ had far more to do with fear than faith. (And while I don't recall specifically; if it was a 'licensed church', well...) It was a propaganda effort, intended to establish yet another precedent for the official religion of state worship. What remains of our "legal system" is based largely on what is called "presumption". You are PRESUMED to be a "taxpayer", a "US citizen", and ultimately a servant of Caesar by all kinds of things that most people don't even recognize as constituting evidence of any such thing. A "license" is just one of them (use of the wrong words is almost as dangerous). The idea of a "rebuttable presumption" is to shift the burden of proof, and "choice of law" so that most people aren't even aware of what happened.

Never forget that Satan's main weapon is fear. Fear is to Satan as faith is to God -- which is why "Fear NOT!" is the most-repeated commandment in Scripture.
 
YFZ

The SUSPICION that "underage" relationships were being engaged in at YFZ is what pried the doors open. They dithered for quite a while at the gates before deciding to go in. What led Texas to take that risk was the confidence that something illegal would be found, though no one knew going it, what exactly that illegal thing would be, or who was the victim or who was the perpetrator.

I am not of the opinion that we are living in a police state, but I am of the opinion we are rapidly becoming one. If the basic form of polygyny is illegal, then your polygynous marriages will be used as probable cause for your harassment. I think the fact that so many of us choose anonymity is proof you already agree.
 
The SUSPICION that "underage" relationships were being engaged in at YFZ is what pried the doors open.

It's a lot like a "suspicion" that your neighbor on the next block is doing something lets them pry YOUR doors open, however, AND steal your kids to boot. (Which is literally what happened, since they invaded everyone and performed wholesale kidnapping.)

I have observed in the past that the mere accusation of "child abuse" is enough to justify any imaginable level of violent response; we are now seeing thought crimes of the politically-incorrect variety added to that ever-increasing list. Like Any Rand once suggested, since "there's no way to rule honest men", the solution it to create criminals. Probable cause is no longer much more than an exercise in propaganda.


Think of it this way. God defined "marriage"; Satan came up with an imitation, based on a lie, and gave it a misleading name: "Civil union". The process has obviously worked well for him; it's not just "probable cause" that has morphed into "plausible excuse".

Ultimately, however, that's not what matters, and it's a side issue rather than the real point. Satan comes but to "kill and destroy", and those who serve him lie. All I'm suggesting is that we be wise as serpents, and make sure we know Who we serve -- because the only REAL protection is to be in the center of His will for each of us.
 
I'm going slightly sideways, based on Mark's thoughts. Actually, so as to not hijack this thread, I'm gonna post it under a new thread, "In The World You Will Have Persecution".
 
Re: You're giving THEM license.

Hugh McBryde said:
Yes, but if you don't take "Caesar's License" you give him cause to enter your home.

T-C & I know this quite well, since we were basically forced through the threat of legal prosecution to get a marriage license. :? Which something I never wanted and disappointed all of our family and chuch family by not acquiring it at the announcement of our marriage.
I had agreed with George Fox''s statement that God marries not the state or people.

"For the right joining in marriage is the work of the Lord only, and not the priests' or the magistrates'; for it is God's ordinance and not man's; and therefore Friends cannot consent that they should join them together: for we marry none; it is the Lord's work, and we are but witnesses" -George Fox 1669

So a ketubah we had taken care of, we felt no need for some silly state license.


Just for clarification: Our ketubah isn't a traditional jewish ketubah, but a mix of a ketubah and Quaker styled wedding certificate. So it isn't ketubah in the traditional sense but that is what we call it.
 
Update!

Over the period of the several days since this topic was first posted on Lynn's blog,
I have both posted there and sent her a series of private emails. That exchange was most rewarding and interesting, even though of course there is some disagreement on significant issues.

Lynn decided to post (with my permission in advance) the initial parts of that exchange, and invited my response. I suspect others here my find the topic of interest as well.

It is here: (Page up to see the whole topic)

http://lynnbaber.net/?p=182#comments

I sent here a copy of my recent article Hit Me With Your Best Shot[/] early on, and encouraged her to visit BF as she takes a bit of a different look at "what the Bible has to say about marriage." Perhaps she will participate here as well.

Blessings,

Mark
 
I'm not familiar with Lynn or her writing, but I'm not very impressed with her response this morning: "I read those scriptures and didn't feel differently about them today than yesterday. Besides that, the Old Testament has nothing to do with me anyway."

I understand that every person can't tackle every controversial subject. I've taken passes on such challenges myself. I don't, however, understand looking at powerful evidence of my own error and summarily dismissing it as irrelevant because it just doesn't feel relevant. Newsflash: The Spirit does not contradict the Father or the Word. If a spirit is telling you something contrary to what the Father has already plainly stated, then that spirit is not his Spirit.
 
Where did she look at the translations to make her decision regarding Mark's debate? I think that she should look at the original language before she dismisses the idea of poly out of hand.

SweetLissa
 
Good points, both Jay and Lissa. (And I'd hate to think I'm turning into a wimp just because she's been so courteous and nice. ;) )

I did write her another private (and LONG) response, essentially saying that it is important that "every word" in Scripture is not only God-breathed, but consistent. But I agree completely, Jay, there are far too many things attributed to 'the spirit' that come from those that don't merit capitalization.


As to that post, I'll let her decide re: her own blog. But perhaps I'll post it here at some point. Ultimately, it's another "digression", to the point of trying to illustrate why some topics merit "passion". (I like the word "zeal" myself, from the story of Phineas, and God's covenant of peace.) So, if nothing else, it'll be a new thread, and another Sacred Cow. ;)


Blessings,

Mark
 
As to that post, I'll let her decide re: her own blog. But perhaps I'll post it here at some point. Ultimately, it's another "digression", to the point of trying to illustrate why some topics merit "passion". (I like the word "zeal" myself, from the story of Phineas, and God's covenant of peace.) So, if nothing else, it'll be a new thread, and another Sacred Cow. ;)

I did finally post this set of exchanges here in a new thread on BF. It is here:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=856
 
I still don't know why Christians worry about getting approval from man made government (uncle beastie) for their marriages. I have a theory..
As time goes by, people become more and more comfortable with gov (uncle beastie) and want it to be their care giver. Even most Christians get into how the gov should protect the sanctity of marriage. My question is why should they allow beastie to meddle in their intimate lives? If someone wants to get a marriage license to marry their car, that their problem, that is my view on that one...
God is the one we are accountable to and the one who joins us in marriage, not beastie or man.
We need to keep in mind that the world is getting darker and the good to them is becoming evil.
There are some pop culture trends I can think of..
A long time ago witches were considered evil manipulative individuals, now they are attractive good people.
Vampires in vampire tales were manipulative murdering creatures, now they are handsome teen guys that are just misunderstood. Personally I wouldn't get exited over sleeping with a cold semi demonic creature (living dead?), no matter how cute she was. lol
There is death fetish in society, hence the fascination with the dead look in Goth, romance novels, prime time autopsy investigations, music, pro death choice, etc. Society is adopting death as their choice.. Ok, I am getting too deep there and going of the topic again.. lol
 
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