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Kody Brown, and the lack of sisterwives

FollowingHim2

FollowingHim2

Women's Ministry
Staff member
Real Person
Female
FollowingHim2 said:
Samuel and I read the book Sister Wives together, written by the wives of Kody Brown from the tv show. It's a good thing I was already accepting of PM, because reading that book made it seem awful. When I think back, I think it was just that it was really clear that Kody was not a good leader and seemed pretty insensitive at times. I've never seen the tv show.
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I wrote this earlier this year. I read the book back when I was late pregnancy and during labour with my now 10 year old. I still have not watched a full episode of the show.
Yesterday, Youtube recommended a video about this show, and the title made me click on it. It wasn't clickbait, Christine really has left him. Divorced. And the thing is, I listened to what she said and it was all sounding very self serving and selfish, while Kody sat there quietly and acted like the weak man I imagined he was. Until he was speaking to the camera on his own and said all the things his wife was doing wrong, but none of what he had done wrong.
Watching and reading more I came to realise that he has essentially 'put away' two of his wives, Meri and Christine. Christine chose to divorce him. Meri chose to stay, even after Kody suggested she move away from the family. She's absolutely committed, even though he barely visits her and won't have any intimate relationship with her anymore.

And why do I bring this up? This is very sad, but essentially gossip and irrelevant to most of us.

When many people talk about how they came to the knowledge of poly, or why they started researching this and came to BF, it's because of this show. It had a huge effect on the culture. Now it's having the opposite effect. Normally on a youtube video you will have various comments of different ideas and disagreements, positive and negative. If you look at any of the videos about Christine leaving they are ALL in agreement with her. They are all saying what a horrible person Kody is and how terrible polygamy is. They're all saying she shouldn't have to share a husband, and now she's 'free'.
Now, while I understand a load of it is how the show portrays things, it's clearly affecting the culture. And that is what concerns me. One man who cannot do polygamy right, who (in my opinion having read the book), should not have had any more than 2 wives, let alone 4, should not be the spokesperson for polygamy. And unfortunately it feels like that is the case here.
 
Happy functional people don't make good TV. My wife always gets frustrated when we watch a show or movie and the entire plot could be solved in 10 minutes by people just talking to each other. I point out, if they did that there wouldn't be a show!

It's interesting, the Bible is actually kind of like that in a lot of ways. That is why one of the go to arguments against polygyny is, "Even if it isn't necessarily a sin it never worked out well for the people who participated in it!" I guess you could say Happy Functional People don't teach you what not to do as well as people who don't know better. What the Bible has going for it, that lame TV shows don't is Jesus, the prophets and Apostles to provide commentary on how things should have gone.

Maybe a good outreach opportunity would be a pro-polygyny/patriarchy voice doing commentary on what this guy does wrong to offer an alternative to the assumption that the polygyny is the problem.

Disclaimer: I have never watched the show and have no idea who you are talking about 😅
 
FollowingHim2 said:
I wrote this earlier this year. I read the book back when I was late pregnancy and during labour with my now 10 year old. I still have not watched a full episode of the show.
Yesterday, Youtube recommended a video about this show, and the title made me click on it. It wasn't clickbait, Christine really has left him. Divorced. And the thing is, I listened to what she said and it was all sounding very self serving and selfish, while Kody sat there quietly and acted like the weak man I imagined he was. Until he was speaking to the camera on his own and said all the things his wife was doing wrong, but none of what he had done wrong.
Watching and reading more I came to realise that he has essentially 'put away' two of his wives, Meri and Christine. Christine chose to divorce him. Meri chose to stay, even after Kody suggested she move away from the family. She's absolutely committed, even though he barely visits her and won't have any intimate relationship with her anymore.

And why do I bring this up? This is very sad, but essentially gossip and irrelevant to most of us.

When many people talk about how they came to the knowledge of poly, or why they started researching this and came to BF, it's because of this show. It had a huge effect on the culture. Now it's having the opposite effect. Normally on a youtube video you will have various comments of different ideas and disagreements, positive and negative. If you look at any of the videos about Christine leaving they are ALL in agreement with her. They are all saying what a horrible person Kody is and how terrible polygamy is. They're all saying she shouldn't have to share a husband, and now she's 'free'.
Now, while I understand a load of it is how the show portrays things, it's clearly affecting the culture. And that is what concerns me. One man who cannot do polygamy right, who (in my opinion having read the book), should not have had any more than 2 wives, let alone 4, should not be the spokesperson for polygamy. And unfortunately it feels like that is the case here.
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Kody was actually even excommunicated from the AUB because of his behaviors. He is not a good example of how a man should be and even less a Mormon man.
 
Apparently there's rumours Janelle has left too, but I don't know how true they are.
 
I never watched the show either. We tried to watch big love once and suffered through one episode. Too much drama and playing the stereotypes of the viewer. A bit like watching a cheap and poorly done movie about horses. When you know horses, you see how fake it is. Painful and embarrassing.

It is sad the family didn't stay intact. Makes me wonder what kind of men the wife leaving will find....or would want her.
 
I'm not that familiar with the show, having only seen bits of it on YouTube.

As a Christian man, I think the practice of polygamy by unbelievers (such as Muslims and Mormons) offers limited insight (still some relevancy of course).

For marriage (monogamous or polygamous) to really work well, we need the Biblical patriarchal framework.

God the Father is Head of Christ the Son. Christ is the Head of the man, and the man is the head of the woman.

Men who aren't properly submitting to Christ will either fail to lead their families, or lead them poorly. I know I've been there and done that.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
I wrote this earlier this year. I read the book back when I was late pregnancy and during labour with my now 10 year old. I still have not watched a full episode of the show.
Yesterday, Youtube recommended a video about this show, and the title made me click on it. It wasn't clickbait, Christine really has left him. Divorced. And the thing is, I listened to what she said and it was all sounding very self serving and selfish, while Kody sat there quietly and acted like the weak man I imagined he was. Until he was speaking to the camera on his own and said all the things his wife was doing wrong, but none of what he had done wrong.
Watching and reading more I came to realise that he has essentially 'put away' two of his wives, Meri and Christine. Christine chose to divorce him. Meri chose to stay, even after Kody suggested she move away from the family. She's absolutely committed, even though he barely visits her and won't have any intimate relationship with her anymore.

And why do I bring this up? This is very sad, but essentially gossip and irrelevant to most of us.

When many people talk about how they came to the knowledge of poly, or why they started researching this and came to BF, it's because of this show. It had a huge effect on the culture. Now it's having the opposite effect. Normally on a youtube video you will have various comments of different ideas and disagreements, positive and negative. If you look at any of the videos about Christine leaving they are ALL in agreement with her. They are all saying what a horrible person Kody is and how terrible polygamy is. They're all saying she shouldn't have to share a husband, and now she's 'free'.
Now, while I understand a load of it is how the show portrays things, it's clearly affecting the culture. And that is what concerns me. One man who cannot do polygamy right, who (in my opinion having read the book), should not have had any more than 2 wives, let alone 4, should not be the spokesperson for polygamy. And unfortunately it feels like that is the case here.
Click to expand...

Now can someone explain to me why Meri and Christine are supposed to submit to the will of their husband who has shunned them and told them to go away? What do they owe him, if anything, at this point?

And where he is clearly a failure as a husband and a train wreck as a man then why should his remaining wives defer to him as the head of their house when he is in fact destroying it?

Oh, and please don't tell me what they're supposed to do to help him. He's the head of the house and he took on the mantle of leadership.
 
Is there any biblical authority for them to do otherwise? Christians are commanded to love our enemies and bless those who curse us. Those commands don't have a cut off point, except maybe in defense of self or others. Does the command to submit to a husband have a cutoff point? I don't know of one, but if you find one, please share.

I think looking at it as a transaction between the husband and wives is misleading. Husbands are told that mistreating their wives will hinder their prayers. It interrupts the relationship with God. I would argue the same can be said of an unsubmissive wife. Her submission is based on her relationship with God, not her relationship with the husband. It for sure sucks if she is stuck with a bad husband, but I don't know of a way out allowed by God. Now, again, their may be a self defence argument to be made for physical abuse, but short of that I can't think of anything.

Ideally, the ones who he shunned or whatever would obey the 1 and only Gospel and abandon Mormonism, and he is the unbelieving husband who left them, so they are no longer bound. That only works here because they are Mormon. A christian in that situation doesn't necessarily have that option.
 
MeganC said:
Now can someone explain to me why Meri and Christine are supposed to submit to the will of their husband who has shunned them and told them to go away? What do they owe him, if anything, at this point?
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I don't know the situation cause I don't watch the show. But if he has put them away and stated he has nothing to do with them anymore, they're divorced. He is supposed to give them something official stating they are divorced it seems but I don't know that it's a specific requirement. Maybe someone else can add to this. If they are divorced, then they don't owe him anything.

MeganC said:
And where he is clearly a failure as a husband and a train wreck as a man then why should his remaining wives defer to him as the head of their house when he is in fact destroying it?
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Because scripture demands it of them. Disagree all you want, I couldn't care less. But that's the plain reading of scripture. Show me otherwise in scripture and I'll be happy to change my opinion. This is "biblical families". So the assumption is "bible based" opinions here.

MeganC said:
Oh, and please don't tell me what they're supposed to do to help him. He's the head of the house and he took on the mantle of leadership.
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The ones he put away? My ignorance of the drama is showing. I don't know who this is referring to. The remaining wives are required to help him according to scripture. I don't say it's fair or nice. Nor do I say he's a "good guy" or an example for anything but a dumpster fire, but God has more say than you or I.
 
Apart from the details above I know nothing of Kody Brown or his situation with his wives.

For Christian wives, Peter wrote in 1 Peter 3:1-2, Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear.

A husband being disobedient to the word is an opportunity for a submissive wife to win him over to to truth. She will do that not by complaining and arguing but by good conduct.

In the American culture a husband's failure is regarded as opportunity for divorce. God says it's an opportunity for a wife to win him over. Which one should a Christian wife be involved in?
 
Ephesians 5:22-24 &33
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
33 ... and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

1 Peter 3:1-6
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

None of these have caveats for if a husband is doing a good job. Not once is it explained that a wife has the option to judge his behavior and see if it is fit for reverence and obedience.

Again, I don't care if you want to say "My personal opinion is that a man has to be amazing and worthy of respect before I'll respect him, and if Steve starts acting a fool, I'll go my own way."

Your beliefs don't change the temperature in my pool one bit. This all comes down to this simple question. "What do you believe the standard is?"
If the standard is your own value system, then there's nothing we can do to change your opinion. If you believe the standard is God's Standard. Then there's all the proof I should need to present. There's even a specific instruction on how a woman should behave if her husband is acting the fool, she is to be the following:
----------------
Meek
Quiet
In subjection to her husband
Obedient
Treat him as if he was your Lord (that's a master, lord, just like he was Christ or your King)
Reverence
A wife is to demonstrate her (pure, holy, chaste, innocent) behavior combined with fear. And that means literal fear. (Phobos S5401)
----------------
That above makes me very uncomfortable, I am not worthy of that kind of behavior from @CatieF. But she demonstrates it.

1000% Kody doesn't deserve that kind of behavior. But does that really matter if God says the wife is to act that way for the purpose of winning him to the Lord?
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Apparently there's rumours Janelle has left too, but I don't know how true they are.
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The teaser for the tell all episode airing next week says they are separated. He is divorced from Christine. Mari is still spiritually married, but they have no relationship and he has stated he won’t have a functioning relationship with her. Only functioning relationship he has is with his fourth and legal wife Robin.
 
WifeOfHisYouth said:
The teaser for the tell all episode airing next week says they are separated. He is divorced from Christine. Mari is still spiritually married, but they have no relationship and he has stated he won’t have a functioning relationship with her. Only functioning relationship he has is with his fourth and legal wife Robin.
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I also saw that Janelle has most likely left as well now. Makes me sad because I watched the show when it first came out and really enjoyed their big family in the earlier seasons. Kody never had authority or respect in that family, he let the wives rule everything, they fought amongst each other, every decision had to be a group decision. Plural marriage is absolutely doomed from the beginning if the husband is not the head.
 
LovesDogs said:
every decision had to be a group decision. Plural marriage is absolutely doomed from the beginning if the husband is not the head.
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I agree. It seemed he wanted more of a patriarchal setup now and that was different from how he originally went into his marriages. I pray he and Janelle work through their separation to reconciliation but if that’s what’s she’s been used to after so many decades of their marriage and with the strain with their children, it is going to be quite a challenge. Sad to see what is happening.
And to essentially dismiss his first wife, Meri, and intimately deny her, regardless of past wrongs is just hard to watch year after year. I pray for all involved.
 
NickF said:
Ephesians 5:22-24 &33
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
33 ... and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

1 Peter 3:1-6
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Colossians 3:18
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

None of these have caveats for if a husband is doing a good job. Not once is it explained that a wife has the option to judge his behavior and see if it is fit for reverence and obedience.

Again, I don't care if you want to say "My personal opinion is that a man has to be amazing and worthy of respect before I'll respect him, and if Steve starts acting a fool, I'll go my own way."

Your beliefs don't change the temperature in my pool one bit. This all comes down to this simple question. "What do you believe the standard is?"
If the standard is your own value system, then there's nothing we can do to change your opinion. If you believe the standard is God's Standard. Then there's all the proof I should need to present. There's even a specific instruction on how a woman should behave if her husband is acting the fool, she is to be the following:
----------------
Meek
Quiet
In subjection to her husband
Obedient
Treat him as if he was your Lord (that's a master, lord, just like he was Christ or your King)
Reverence
A wife is to demonstrate her (pure, holy, chaste, innocent) behavior combined with fear. And that means literal fear. (Phobos S5401)
----------------
That above makes me very uncomfortable, I am not worthy of that kind of behavior from @CatieF. But she demonstrates it.

1000% Kody doesn't deserve that kind of behavior. But does that really matter if God says the wife is to act that way for the purpose of winning him to the Lord?
Click to expand...

I agree with what you have here.
 
LovesDogs said:
I also saw that Janelle has most likely left as well now. Makes me sad because I watched the show when it first came out and really enjoyed their big family in the earlier seasons. Kody never had authority or respect in that family, he let the wives rule everything, they fought amongst each other, every decision had to be a group decision. Plural marriage is absolutely doomed from the beginning if the husband is not the head.
Click to expand...
But that is what happens in equal partnerships, as long as everyone agree you go in the same direction.
Its when you don't and your family is in parts.
 
LovesDogs said:
I also saw that Janelle has most likely left as well now. Makes me sad because I watched the show when it first came out and really enjoyed their big family in the earlier seasons. Kody never had authority or respect in that family, he let the wives rule everything, they fought amongst each other, every decision had to be a group decision. Plural marriage is absolutely doomed from the beginning if the husband is not the head.
Click to expand...

I am curious

Based on many of your questions, your overt statements and our own conversations, I got the impression that you found the idea of a husband's authority and control of his wife(s) a difficult pill to swallow.

Is this not the case?

If not, could you walk me through your mental image of how you imagin that a hypothetical husband would see a husband being in control of a relationship with you?
 
paterfamilias said:
I am curious

Based on many of your questions, your overt statements and our own conversations, I got the impression that you found the idea of a husband's authority and control of his wife(s) a difficult pill to swallow.

Is this not the case?

If not, could you walk me through your mental image of how you imagin that a hypothetical husband would see a husband being in control of a relationship with you?
Click to expand...
It definitely is a difficult pill for me to swallow, I don't even know if I could do it myself. Though I still believe in the case of plural marriage the man being the leader is an absolute necessity, I wouldn't enter into a plural marriage until I was ready to accept that.
 
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