Insurance and other benefits

[love4me]

How does the 2nd wife handle the issue of insurance and other benefits. She would not be entitled to the same benefits as the 1st wife because legally they are not married.

 

[Mark C]

You raise a good point, love4me, but I will suggest that this question is a far bigger one than it appears.

Are we to trust in God, or in man?

Insurance companies go broke (or worse, they commit massive fraud and get bailed out by other criminals, like AIG did) and welfare systems substitute coercion for charity, and all ultimately fail when the "money" itself fails, as we are now seeing.

There is truly no "security" in anything but Him, and His provision for us, and our houses.

Much has been written on these threads about marriage "licensing", and whether a Covenant of marriage should be made before Caesar, or before God. I contend that we "cannot serve two masters", and that the only marriages (look at modern divorce statistics, "Christian or otherwise!) which will truly be blessed are those which are "built upon the Rock", which is Him, and His Word.

There is a difference between "legal" (which now applies even to 'unions' that God calls abomination, but not to many He sanctions!) and "Lawful". Think about what is meant by Yeshua's teaching that, "What God has joined, let man not separate." Does it matter Who does that joining? And Who defines marriage, or Writes the Law that governs it?

I believe this distinction will become increasingly crucial.

Granted, such marriage is not easy in a world where it will soon be impossible to "buy or sell" without having a property record nu... er, Social Security Number (remember when it was "NOT to be used for purposes of identification"? While I suspect you might not, it actually still remains true). "Biometric identification" -- meaning everything from face scans and fingerprints to implanted RFID chips -- will soon be mandated for the few remaining things (they are called "loopholes" :? ) not already required.

But "private contract" still exists. One can put in place plans, instruments (such as trusts, wills, partnerships, etc) and other options to provide for loved ones without taking a license, or otherwise entering into submission before "Caesar", or taking his license.

There is much more which can (and indeed has) been written on the topic, but ultimately it requires a level of trust and commitment far greater than just getting permission from government to do that which God ordains, whether it's called "marriage" or "civil union".


Blessings,

Mark

 

[sweetlissa]

If you don't get insurance through your own employment, insurance can be purchased. It is expensive, but no one ever said supporting more than one wife was cheap. As for other issues, you need to see a lawyer and make a will. I have heard that some people create family trusts. You also need to have powers of attorney and that document that lets you see each other if you are hospitalized and can't speak for yourself.

SweetLissa

 

[T-C's Rebeka]

Much has been written on these threads about marriage "licensing", and whether a Covenant of marriage should be made before Caesar, or before God. I contend that we "cannot serve two masters", and that the only marriages (look at modern divorce statistics, "Christian or otherwise!) which will truly be blessed are those which are "built upon the Rock", which is Him, and His Word.
There is a difference between "legal" (which now applies even to 'unions' that God calls abomination, but not to many He sanctions!) and "Lawful". Think about what is meant by Yeshua's teaching that, "What God has joined, let man not separate." Does it matter Who does that joining? And Who defines marriage, or Writes the Law that governs it?
Mark

--- So true..---


"Legal" marriage has always been distasteful to me even as a young teenager. My biological father was a serial monogamist; my mother was wife #5 or 7 depending on whose counting. So I had it figured out early on that the papers mean nothing.
T-C and I would not be legally married today if it wasn't for the fact that the State basically forced us to. They served papers to have legal action taken against T-C due to our relationship to put it simply- all of which would be dropped if we went and paid the State the tax for a piece of paper to declare what our church, family, and friends already knew. So after being married under God's eyes for over a year we had to do the paperwork. (My church that I grew up in and that we were married in has never and will never sign on government marriage licenses.) I have thought of getting the paperwork reversed just because I have a bit of a rebellous side to me, but the cost and hoops to do so make it silly. T-C and I have considered that if/when it becomes clear that we are to have another wife in our family, we might do the paperwork then. I don't like the idea of having a "better" status than another wife. Sort of "do on to others" type thing. If I was the second wife I might be uncomfortable, maybe just a little bit, that I don't have what the other wife has. While an additional wife would be a different person with different qualities and talents, I wouldn't want her to be treated differently than me - even if that were nothing more than a stupid piece of paper filed with a government that for a few hundred bucks will void it.

Insurance is a huge deal, even for us now. T-C would love to be self-employed again but I have some serious health issues and I haven't found an employer with health insurance benefits that don't take my entire pay check. I used to have that and that allowed him to be fully self-employed which was a huge blessing for our entire family.
Depending on where you live you might want to look into insurance now and see what it would cost - even the uber high deductable plans. Health insurance is just one of many details of PM that have to be worked out before one gets into it.

Many of the "benefits" of a legal marriage can be provided legally through various powers of attorneys and other documents. Many family law attorneys are familiar with them because there are many mono couples who do not want to be legally married b/c the expense and hassle of divorce. Divorce is presumed inevitable in our local area, even among those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ.

 

[Doc]

(My church that I grew up in and that we were married in has never and will never sign on government marriage licenses.)

Just out of curiosity, what faith background was the church you grew up in? We are finding churches like that few and far between.

Doc

 

[DaPastor]

(My church that I grew up in and that we were married in has never and will never sign on government marriage licenses.)

Just out of curiosity, what faith background was the church you grew up in? We are finding churches like that few and far between.

Doc

There is a slow underground movement of churches that are refusing to sign government marriage licenses.
Some of these churches are extremely liberal and are doing it as a protest against the government not allowing homosexuals to marry (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/01 ... efuse.html).
However, there are others that are doing it because of their convictions concerning the word of God (http://www.mercyseat.net/pamphlets/marriagelicense.html)

 

[love4me]

If there was no license then a lot of places would deny benefits to the spouse that would have been entitled to if there would have been licenses. Its another instance where the government wins and there isn't much we can do about it

 

[sweetlissa]

That is one reason that we leave the legal marriage for hubby and T alone. She needs the benefits, since she hasn't ever had to work outside the home (much). I work so I usually get some form of benefits through my job. It works for us.

SweetLissa

 

[Mark C]

...However, there are others that are [avoiding marriage licenses] because of their convictions concerning the word of God (http://www.mercyseat.net/pamphlets/marriagelicense.html)

That second one (Mercy Seat) was pretty good at first...I almost thought the author/pastor had been reading BF...through the first four points on his list!

Then he went right into the ditch, making it yet another example of how people manage to read 80% or so of what He says, but then go blind when idolatry comes into view.

I liked the beginning so well, and was so moved by his sudden "left-turn into the ditch" at point five, that I wrote that pastor a letter -- just before I finished this post. Since I was working on something a bit similar anyway, I'll probably post it shortly as another thread...

(That thread is Who Gives This Woman:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563)

 

[Mark C]

If there was no license then a lot of places would deny benefits to the spouse that would have been entitled to if there would have been licenses. Its another instance where the government wins and there isn't much we can do about it...

While I understand your point, love4me, there really is something that we can do about it, and that is put our trust in Him, rather than in "another master". Whether it's Joshua (in 24:15) saying "Choose this day whom you will serve", and than noting - as patriarchs from Abraham on have known - that the answer must be, "as for me and my house, we will serve YHVH..." or our Kinsman-Redeemer Whose Name also means "salvation", that message is the same: "we are His servants Whom we submit ourselves to obey."

This is a long story, of course, but it is one that I believe we are all soon to see played out, as God shows us in "modern Babylon" (I could say Amerika, of course ) just what He showed ancient Egypt: "He alone is Worthy" of our worship, and of our trust. Sadly, those other "insurers" are already bankrupt, along with the deceptive foundation they were built upon.

We must all learn to build our families, our Houses, on the only Rock which will not be shaken.

Blessings in the Name of the true Rock,

Mark

 

[T-C's Rebeka]

(My church that I grew up in and that we were married in has never and will never sign on government marriage licenses.)

Just out of curiosity, what faith background was the church you grew up in? We are finding churches like that few and far between.

Doc

I was raised 'WELS' Lutheran. Acronym stands for Wisconsin Evengelical Lutheran Synod. They are very very "old fashioned", as in women have no voting rights in church politics, a female teacher who gets married will have a pay decrease. I know it sounds "wrong" by USA PC standards but hey it is what it is.
Anyway, my church in CA would not issue marriage licenses because the pastor has to get a license from the state to do so and that cost money plus he would have to pledge allegiance to the USA - They're WELS Lutherans not americans. Conservative Lutherans are big on the book of Romans, so they take Romans 12:2 seriuosly. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. It was my favorite verse as a teenager.

 

[T-C's Rebeka]

If there was no license then a lot of places would deny benefits to the spouse that would have been entitled to if there would have been licenses. Its another instance where the government wins and there isn't much we can do about it

Personally I would rather be without "benefits" than to have a government lording over me.

I worked with a woman whose family only believed in faith healing. She was born at home as was her siblings. She had never been seen by a doctor. She told me how her brother broke his leg and it was healed through prayer.
**talking about healings like that my current pastor's son was healed of a broken bone in the wrist. Urgent care xrays showed a clear break on Saturday, On Tuesday at the specialist the xray showed no break, no history of a break. Talk about huge witness opportunity!**

People have survived many years through out history without modern medicine - and in my husband's family case modern medicine is usually worse than the old traditional medicines of his heritage so it really is a culture thing. I know many people locally that will go to the "medicine man"/ faith healer before they will ever turn to modern western medicine. Side effects that only effect 1-2% of populations are the ones that effect 90% of the major ethnicity here.

Also, You can buy many antibiotics at Farm co-ops. You just have to figure out the weight/dosage calculations, thats what many uninsured do here. --- They aren't stupid... people don't have that many sick fish.

I was raise without insurance most of my life. I remember vividly holding my kid brother down, as my mom tried to force him to drink brandy for a sedative, because he had fallen in bamboo and a shoot had splintered through his hand. I held him down as my mom used kitchen utensils and sewing thread to do the best she could. My grandmother sewed my big sister's finger back on when it was accidently cut off - yes the entire first digit removed - she did a good enough job that the ER docs just removed her stiches and used their medical grade ones.
So with some self education you can go around the insurance thing....

 

[Mark C]

That's a wonderful testimony, T-C'sR...

I admire a fellow who teaches a Biblicly-based law school (George Gordon's School of Law*, in Missouri) who has a very similar mindset. (It coincides, perhaps not surprisingly, with my own contention that we are to "choose this day Whom we will serve", and that we are "his servants whom we submit ourselves to obey", whether God or "some other master".)

Note that many contracts and other instruments (real estate, in particular) often even spell it out for you, and call it "Choice of Law". (At one point, this was widely understood to be either "common law" - based obviously and often consistently on the Bible - or the "Uniform Commercial Code". As our society has "evolved", toward pagan-based tradition, and away from His Word, that distinction has been largely forgotten.)

He phrases it this way:

"Which "choice of law" will you make? The Ten Commandments of God, or the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto?" (When he speaks, a view of those Ten Planks makes it clear just how far "Amerika" has come in rejecting the former, and accepting completely the latter. See a well-known booklet called The Citizen's Rulebook for details as well.)

Everything about that (false) choice speaks to the issue of where we put our trust - in Him, or in the Venerable Wisdom of Man and his not-so-sacred Traditions.

God has given us guidelines in His Word for every aspect of how to live a long, blessed, productive, and healthy life. He told us what is food, and what is not; (and even that we can eat poison if necessary, but it is best not to "test Him"!) how to trade and deal honestly with one another (honest money, avoiding usury and debt slavery); who is our true Healer and who is not; (it's hard not to notice that our Savior is almost as disdainful of physicians as he was of lawyers!); and where we are to put our trust. (In Him, and not "insurers". Ironically, they often exempt themselves from coverage for "Acts of God" anyway. Just wait! )

I've heard a number of State-licensed "pastors" proclaim that God no longer heals the people in the church today. Perhaps an examination of who signs their paychecks, who owns their building and their home, who licensed their "ministry" and their "marriage", who indoctrinates their children, and who they really trust will help clarify that observation.

Blessings,

Mark


----------------------
* George is also a radio talk show host, and frequent guest on the show of a friend of mine. He frequently advises about how to "come out of" the whole insurance racket in a private, God-honoring way as well, by joining together with other Believers. Such folks, presumably neighbors but not necessarily, can regularly put aside money for emergencies and also negotiate with providers (such as emergency room doctors, who might otherwise deal with insurers) for cash rates, or other options that can help all of them to return to a more "Torah-based" economic system. Payment for service in "real money", like silver coin, is a good option as well.