I don't want more than one wife, but am looking at maybe not having a choice

[DiscipleOfChrist]

To just about anyone in the world this is going to sound nothing short of crazy, and above all I need prayer.

It became my belief that marriage begins not at the legal marriage office or at a ceremony, but when a couple agrees together that they "will" get married.

The long and short of it is this: the act begins in the heart in God's sight. Like if I hate someone I murdered them. If I lusted after someone's wife, I committed adultery. And likewise, if two people agree together with their hearts that they will "become one flesh," believe that's the covenant that God witnessed, not that it only became legit when you physically sign a document or set up some gathering in a ceremony. Just the way the legal goalposts move around a bit, marriage does indeed start somewhere in God's sight, and that's the spiritual act that does it, I believe.

So after some of the utmost painful turns of events, my fiancee in New Zealand didn't want to come to me. I don't blame her, because it had to do with me realizing I had a LOT of studying to do about when marrying a divorced woman is permissible and I broke the poor woman's heart in so doing. A visa does the trick to get a woman over here and marry, but she'd get deported if there's any sign I cohabitate with another woman.

In one sense I couldn't care less because I'm a thousand percent fine with just her, easily. But being alone is HORRIBLE and I feel like I can't take it. I feel like if I married another woman, I'd have a hard time doing it through the realization that I'd slam the door on a marriage visa ever being possible (unless the Lord intervenes in His omnipotence). I think you can get away with cohabitating with two women in NZ but I have no idea how I'd manage getting by down there (can barely manage here in America).

This is major, major pain. Sorry for this big dump of info. I cannot believe how painful this is or how hard of a choice it all is.

I mean yeah I think of David and Michal. The situation feels similar at this point in that Michal was just stubborn for life (from what we can gather) and David just went on to marry other women. The big difference here is what it would mean for me to do that: an incredibly hard time getting her back if she changed her mind to a miraculous extent. She hates my theology as I stated, thinks I'm far from God, etc. She thinks that the laws of the land create the covenant which I think is nuts; I mean if the government can't decide the END of a marriage and God doesn't recognize divorces just because a government grants it, then why is the government in charge of deciding when a marriage begins? Can the government annul a marriage in God's sight?

Or maybe, if not NZ, there are other countries in the world we could find to life? This is so far out and I sound crazy to myself. But it's all I can think of. They primary voice in my head is just pure pain with this.

 

[frederick]

She hates my theology as I stated, thinks I'm far from God, etc. She thinks that the laws of the land create the covenant

Thank you for being so open and honest with what you have shared.

Please read very slowly and carefully what you have written. Honestly, it seems to me that God, according to His infinite wisdom and love, has spared you from a catastrophe. If what you say is indeed true (and I'm not suggesting you are being untruthful) then it would be most imprudent to take such a woman to be your wife. The relationship would be doomed to failure unless there was a miraculous change. Don't presume upon God's grace that such a miracle might occur.

I think you can get away with cohabitating with two women in NZ but I have no idea how I'd manage getting by down there (can barely manage here in America).

You can get away with just about anything in NZ but the cost of living is very high, so actually living might be the most difficult part. Until you have a solid foundation in the Word of God established with this woman it would seem unwise to consider any future together. Shalom

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Thank you for being so open and honest with what you have shared.

Please read very slowly and carefully what you have written. Honestly, it seems to me that God, according to His infinite wisdom and love, has spared you from a catastrophe. If what you say is indeed true (and I'm not suggesting you are being untruthful) then it would be most imprudent to take such a woman to be your wife. The relationship would be doomed to failure unless there was a miraculous change. Don't presume upon God's grace that such a miracle might occur.

Some of that thought kind of occurred to me. The problem with looking at it quite the way that you put it is that, prudence aside, with our promise we DID make the covenant and so are bound as it is, is the way I see it.

As far as presuming on a miracle or not, I don't know what I'd do in the event that she changed her mind after I had another woman.

In what other countries can you manage polygyny? i.e. hopefully in the first world.

 

[frederick]

Some of that thought kind of occurred to me. The problem with looking at it quite the way that you put it is that, prudence aside, with our promise we DID make the covenant and so are bound as it is, is the way I see it.

As far as presuming on a miracle or not, I don't know what I'd do in the event that she changed her mind after I had another woman.

In what other countries can you manage polygyny? i.e. hopefully in the first world.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your use of the phrase "my fiancee in New Zealand". My mistake.

 

[FollowingHim]

The problem with looking at it quite the way that you put it is that, prudence aside, with our promise we DID make the covenant and so are bound as it is, is the way I see it.

Although I agree with you that a covenant is an important aspect of marriage - it does not in itself make a marriage. The marriage must be consummated. Did you consummate this marriage? If not, she's not your wife.

A covenant begins a betrothal - but not a marriage. It is sex that seals and begins the marriage.

As far as presuming on a miracle or not, I don't know what I'd do in the event that she changed her mind after I had another woman.

Your problem is only a practical one - how could you get a visa for her to join you in the USA, in the (honestly unlikely) event that (1) you find another woman, (2), marry her, (3) the first woman then stops objecting to your theological views and decides she wants to marry you, (4) becomes happy to even become a second wife, and (5) you decide to live as a family in the USA rather than elsewhere. This is a very unlikely series of events. It's not going to happen without God's direct intervention - and if He decides to make all that happen, the comparatively minor detail of finding a place the three of you can live is something He will have a plan for also.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Although I agree with you that a covenant is an important aspect of marriage - it does not in itself make a marriage. The marriage must be consummated. Did you consummate this marriage? If not, she's not your wife.

A covenant begins a betrothal - but not a marriage. It is sex that seals and begins the marriage.

I didn't consummate. But I absolutely can't agree with your assertions as betrothals always caused a woman to belong to a man, and she could not be anyone else's. That was even true with the slave girl whose ownership partly belonged to her slaveowner.

I get that the rest is unlikely series of events, but it's still something to consider. It's a matter of knowing what to do with every situation, whatever it is. The Lord can indeed do anything.

 

[NickF]

I absolutely can't agree with your assertions as betrothals always caused a woman to belong to a man, and she could not be anyone else's. That was even true with the slave girl whose ownership partly belonged to her slaveowner.

Are you looking for a justification for holding to this course?

 

[steve]

But being alone is HORRIBLE and I feel like I can't take it.

I think that you need to man up here and quit allowing your emotions to run you.
If you feel that your commitment to your fiancé is a marriage, and that any other marriage would cause her to be sent back, then shut up and do what your marriage needs.

Personally, I believe that you can have more than one marriage in the sight of Yah and live separately, not giving the government any evidence. But you sound like you may be too emotional to carry that out.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Personally, I believe that you can have more than one marriage in the sight of Yah and live separately, not giving the government any evidence. But you sound like you may be too emotional to carry that out.

I'm not sure I know what this means. Do you mean like one marriage that's actual cohabitation, and the other completely long distance?

 

[steve]

I'm not sure I know what this means. Do you mean like one marriage that's actual cohabitation, and the other completely long distance?

Yes but not necessarily long distance.
Just maintain a separate residence.
In the world, girlfriends visit and the guys visit the girlfriends. Nobody sees them as married.
Just don’t spend an excessive amount of time with them.

But first divorce yourself from the idea that you cannot stand being without one. That mentality will sabotage you in a heartbeat.
They can be a blessing, (they can also be hell on earth) but they aren’t essential.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I think that you need to man up here and quit allowing your emotions to run you.
If you feel that your commitment to your fiancé is a marriage, and that any other marriage would cause her to be sent back, then shut up and do what your marriage needs.

Personally, I believe that you can have more than one marriage in the sight of Yah and live separately, not giving the government any evidence. But you sound like you may be too emotional to carry that out.

This.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Are you looking for a justification for holding to this course?

For a general comment, what I was *mostly* looking for was for any practical know-how that anyone has around here. I know a lot of things from my own research, as my first post should indicate, but I thought that some folks around here might know more on the practical front when I think about a plan of attack.

 

[DiscipleOfChrist]

Yes but not necessarily long distance.
Just maintain a separate residence.
In the world, girlfriends visit and the guys visit the girlfriends. Nobody sees them as married.
Just don’t spend an excessive amount of time with them.

I'm not following this picture. She's in New Zealand and I'm in the US.

 

[steve]

I'm not following this picture. She's in New Zealand and I'm in the US.

Right, it’s your other wife that you would have to keep at a distance so that your NZ wife could be legalized as your government wife. Your other wife would be the female (whoever) that you claim that you cannot live without.
I mean, I would skip the extra wife part of the equation, but you are going to do what you are going to do.

Question, how well do you know the NZ babe?

 

[Matthew Hudson]

The long and short of it is this: the act begins in the heart in God's sight. Like if I hate someone I murdered them. If I lusted after someone's wife, I committed adultery.

"If I lusted after someone's wife, I committed adultery."
Nonsense.
You need far less prayer than you do education. I don't say this lightly, or without empathy, but it's true.

First of all, Lusting after someone's wife is not looking at a pretty girl and wanting to take her home. It takes a LOT more than that. And the verse you were talking about, Matthew 5 27/28, well, it's not as cut and dry as you would think. Lusting after someone is far more than thinking she's pretty, and it's more than wanting to talk to her. It's more than actually talking to her and it's more than having a fantasy about her. It's when you want her and start acting on it KNOWING that she is bound to another.

Think of a marriage bond as a real tangible thing. Imagine it as a physical glowing link between two people and it helps understand what I'm talking about. When you have that between two people the cord is bright, beautiful, vibrant. Then when you pollute it, it becomes dull, sickly and wrong. If you want her and don't care if she's married, and act on taking her away, then you have already committed adultery in your heart even though you haven't yet gotten her. See why now? It's because in your heart, to want something that bad, you visualize it and it pollutes you and ignores her safety, her existing bad, and in a way you're threatening to murder a marriage and ACTING ON IT.

The next issue is when does marriage start and the history of the Jews tells this. It's the oath you make. Marriage is a CHOICE you make. You can choose to not marry and some do. You can choose to be monogamous, and some do that as well. You can choose to be polygynous and you very well may be someday. But it takes two or more witnesses to make a marriage legitimate. Just having sex does not do it. It creates the bond, but it doesn't legitimize it. It's also a feminine noun, there is a different word or men who fornicate. It's a word that seems to mean a women who engages in sex with no promises and is used for prostitutes who sell themselves. So to make it concise, you meet missus woman, you have dinner... you're not married. You go to your place, and get frisky... you've now bound to her with a bond. You can legitimize that bond or walk away from it. Walking away from it harms HER. You can bond many, she can bond ONE. So now, she has your bond and each time she has sex after that, she has also bonded another man TO YOU. This is why the root term for a male fornicator means Male Prostitute or someone that gives away something precious for pennies. When you legitimize the marriage and you do it in front of two witnesses, then that marriage is a real thing. It takes two witnesses to make a thing real - even the accusation of murder.

The next issue is leadership. You have no idea how. You don't study it, and it shows. You have the idea that it's about finding women and it's not. Gideon had many wives and was a fantastic leader. David was a leader. Solomon was a leader. The stronger the leader, the better the marriage. Being good, a lover, a nice guy will just get you ulcers. Forget women, study leadership. When you become a real leader thorugh study, and finding jobs or an environment that the skills are useful (I ran the production department for a theater, badly for a while, but better as time went on) and then you'll grow that inner confidence that will let you start leading people. Then, the women will find you, you won't need to really look. But right now, you need education.

 

[Bartato]

Lust is "heart adultery". It isn't actual adultery. It is enough to damn a man, but isn't enough to conceive an illegitimate child.

Likewise hating is "heart murder" but isn't "actual murder". Heart murder might damn a man, but it can't be cause for hanging a man.

I'm quite confident that you aren't married bro

 

[Matthew Hudson]

Lust is "heart adultery". It isn't actual adultery. It is enough to damn a man, but isn't enough to conceive an illegitimate child.

Likewise hating is "heart murder" but isn't "actual murder". Heart murder might damn a man, but it can't be cause for hanging a man.

I'm quite confident that you aren't married bro

Wife waves at you from behind me.
My understanding of what the verses mean comes from the word studies and finding the root of the words used. You may disagree with me, and that's your choice. If you wish to challenge me, then by all means do your own word study and let me know what you find. Not much use in, "You said it, therefore it's true," stuff. Have a good day.

 

[FollowingHim]

But I absolutely can't agree with your assertions as betrothals always caused a woman to belong to a man, and she could not be anyone else's. That was even true with the slave girl whose ownership partly belonged to her slaveowner.

So, are you formally betrothed to this woman?
- Did you pay her father for her?
- Did you sign a written contract to this effect?
- Failing that, did you buy her as a slave?

What makes you think you are betrothed?

 

[MemeFan]

Lust in Bible doesn't have same meaning as today.

Lust today means feeling sexual desire, but Biblical meaning is desiring something forbidden.

More:

What is Lust?

In our English language lust is most often associated with finding someone sexually desirable. If a man looks at a woman and thinks “she is hot” or “I would love to have sex with her” this is thoug…

biblicalgenderroles.com

Additional thing: Morality is always connected with free will. Animals don't have morality because they run on instinct. This is automatic behaviour.

Noticing beatiful women doesn't have anything with morality because it's instinct. Morality only comes in play when person chooses his reaction. For example, you are in elevator alone with married lady. What are going to do? Rape, seduction, small talk, just stand etc... All choices are moral choices.

This "lust is evil" is pure evil and gnosticism. It's heresy. How can something naturaly human be evil by itself? Somehow free will, creativity aren't etc..., but sexual desire is. This idea is used to beat natural men's sexuality out of him by church and wife.

Wife's interest is obvious. Competition elimination. Church's is illusion what is sin here.

Men in his natural state, without influence of culture, will desire to boink-boink pretty girls. If men don't have such desire how children and future of mankind will be insured? I would never trust man claiming he doesn't desire to boink-boink pretty girl. What is wrong with him? Gay or something worse?

 

[MemeFan]

We did have conversation about lust here:

Polygyny, Matt. 5:28, and Attraction

Since being married about 3 years ago, my wife has asked me some hard questions. We were watching a movie and a scantily clad woman came on the screen and she asked, "What does it do to you when you see a woman dressed like that?" I didn't have an answer. At the time I believed the traditional...

biblicalfamilies.org