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Household Guerrilla Warfare

CecilW

CecilW

Member
Real Person
Male
Don't we have wonderful ladies on this forum? I so enjoy reading what they write. Generally profit as well.

Today I got to thinking, and realized a paradox. Some of them are wonderfully unsubmissive but submitted wives. And others are submissive household guerrilla warriors! (Hunh? :o )

Scarecrow says I gotta grab yer attention in the title and first paragraph or so. Hope I did, and you'll stick with me to see what I mean. (Sir BumbleBerry is muttering, "Here he goes again!" Little rascal!)

Oh, oh! Let me up the ante via inflammatory statements! Insecure Macho Males want submissive wives. Secure Men want submitted wives. BIG, HUGE difference!

Lot's of folks don't really know the difference. (At least as I see it, of course. It is possible that if I delve into the Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit origins of the terms, they might mean something different and I'll confuse everyone except ... well, everyone.) Let me explain. As I see it ...

"A submissive wife" is a statement of her personality. She will run around with her head down refusing to contribute her own honest thinking to the family decision making process. She simply waits to be told what to do, and rejects the responsibility of thought. In a way, she's kinda on strike.

"A submitted wife" is more like an active and valued member of management. She thinks, and will argue hotly as part of the decision making process. This ensures that the "decision maker" (fancy term for "husband") has gotten the best possible input from all sides and doesn't miss anything critical, insofar as his "subordinates" can see.

However, the decision remains his responsibility. Once made, a submitted member of management says, "Ok, that is now our policy / plan / practice. I will put my own thoughts aside and help make the official plan a success. If it ever comes up for review, I'll revisit my original thoughts to see if they still seem valid or not, but in the meantime, I support the team."

The arguing is over. It doesn't keep on and on and on, hoping to wear the decision maker down and force him to the manager's point of view out of pure frustration. In a business, the boss would simply fire a manager who acted that way. In a marriage, it is more complicated.

One reason men leave or at least emotionally withdraw to the point of detachment is because of women failing to submit in this specific way. They may whine, "You're the boss. I'm powerless, I know. You are going to do what you want to. But we don't have the MONEY for ... and the kids NEED ... first, and I don't WANT you to ..." over and over and over, hoping that he'll throw up his hands and give in.

That is neither submissive nor submitted, but a waging of household guerrilla warfare, and it brings catastrophic results. It may masquerade as being submissive, but at heart it is rebellious and angry and trying to get its own way!

Now here's an interesting corollary: The whole forum concept is that we are helping each other think stuff through and learn. Not that we make decisions for each other. It is therefore by definition the sort of place where mature secure men WANT all thinking wives to speak up and argue for their positions. (My idea of course, in case any men wanna disagree ...)

We thereby gain appropriate helpful input from an even wider group of helpmates than we have in our own families -- with the emphasis on "appropriate". I have no appropriate right to call a family meeting with my wife or wives and include a half dozen forum women, single or married, to come to my house and sit around my table and participate in a family decision. But I CAN appropriately benefit from respectfully discussing concepts with y'all online, (while listening to the wife I have, of course :) ), as well as the men. What a blessing!

So thanks to all you submitted but unsubmissive ladies on the forum. Y'all are a treasure!
 
good job, as per usual :)

my wife and i had a discussion just this am about the fine line between "presenting her viewpoint" and "endless disputations".
where does this line exist? dunno, but it will vary according to my level of tiredness, sugar, etc. ;)
 
I appreciate the insight, Cecil :) Many women, including myself, have been berated for using our logical, thinking, God-given brains to form opinions. This is refreshing.
 
This is me hitting the Like button.
That was good and so true. The decision is a go if it goes along with what I think is right. If it doesn't , truthfully thinking back I did tend to keep going hoping to convince him that my way was right. but , I did grow up and learn how to be a helpmeet. dd
 
How does a husband convince his warrior to lay down her tomahawk and wipe off the warpaint???
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I don't think he can. If she doesn't do it of her own volition, as a part of the adult family, she is neither submissive nor submitted. Going along with the husbands leadership must be an act of her will. I do appreciate the concept of wives being valuable contributors to the husbands leadership role, providing unique insights, colors and flavors to the issues under consideration. Any leader with a modicum of wisdom will seek the counsel of other who have a vested interest in the outcome. Greater participation produces greater profit.

However, at the risk of sounding like a chauvinist, let me remind us all that "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus", and we all speak "Five Love Languages". Here comes the real dangerous part for me,.....male logic and female logic operate on different planes and rarely intersect. Hence the required "head", per the designer of families.
 
John Whitten said:
However, at the risk of sounding like a chauvinist, let me remind us all that "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus", and we all speak "Five Love Languages". Here comes the real dangerous part for me,.....male logic and female logic operate on different planes and rarely intersect. Hence the required "head", per the designer of families.
Click to expand...

It's not chauvanistic, it's just truth. I don't think the point of the post was to state otherwise...I like what he said, it's nice knowing that in most situations my voice can be heard by my husband, even if it's not the direction taken.
 
Andria wrote,
I like what he said, it's nice knowing that in most situations my voice can be heard by my husband, even if it's not the direction taken.
Click to expand...

Agreed. No man with a lick of sense would want a robot as a wife. Or a zombie, Cecil. :lol:
 
Cec, not just an excellent post, but truly revelatory. Well done, Sir Bumbleberry! ;)
 
This type of rebellion is not tolerated in the corporate world...Assistant Managers either follow the lead of the General Manager or they are allowed to pursue other opportunities. However, in a marriage it is waaaay more complicated.

Doubtful that someone would want to join a house in rebellion, no matter how much the individual is liked; most people do not want to live with hate and discontent.

So again, how can the warrior get off the warpath? Does it take sessions with their pastor? Reading some books by Dr. Phil ?

My heart goes out to any husband that has this type of war going on in their home.

Does Sir Bumbleberry or the other boys in the band have a suggestion??
 
: ) got my attention...and I even read the whole thing. I won't comment on style or content though since this isn't a teaching article - submission has been thoroughly covered in very well written teaching articles and in other posts.

I disagree with your definition of submission. A submitted wife is submissive to her husband, and a submissive wife will be submitted to her husband. It is like saying "born again Christian". If you are born again you are a Christian, if you are a Christian you are born again, they are one and the same thing.

http://thinkexist.com/dictionary/meaning/submission/

The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; surrender of the person and power to the control or government of another; obedience; compliance.
An agreement by which parties engage to submit any matter of controversy between them to the decision of arbitrators.
Acknowledgement of a fault; confession of error.
The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or suppliant behavior; meekness; resignation.

Biblical submission in marriage is acknowledging another in authority over you, secular marital submission can at times be construed as being a doormat as you propose. This may be where the confusion is coming in.

I like the fact that obedience and meekness were listed in the definitions.
Men are commanded to love their wives, and women are commanded to obey their husbands. A disobedient wife is being anything but submissive and is likely violating/breaking her covenant vows.
I heard a sermon on meekness and it boiled down to strength under control and the analogy of a bridled powerful young stallion was used. When I am around a meek woman I very much enjoy her company, I think it is one of the most pleasant characteristics a woman can have.

As has been pointed out a successful business has the submission and cooperation of the subordinates - it is a team. This is no different in a biblical marriage and family. A vice president of a company "has the ear" of the president, if he/she is a good president, and the vice president will do everything possible to see to it that the decisions of the president are carried out even if he/she disagrees with them. THAT is submission.

Where our society has run into a brick wall is that feminism has been hijacked. I am all for true feminism. I believe women should have all the same rights and opportunities as men. If a woman is the president of a company and a man is a vice president he should be submissive to her in that role. But if you believe in the Christian Bible and what it teaches about marriage then a woman is to be submissive to her husband, God made him the president by default. She still has her right to express her opinions and concerns, but if her husband makes a decision that goes against her opinions she should still support his decision to the best of her ability. THAT is submission.

The guerrilla warfare you express is simply a symptom of what feminism has become and what it typically does to marriage. The remedy for this is submission and that is a bitter pill few if any married women will ever swallow after the fact. When a woman wages this kind of war in her home it is nothing less than mutiny and needs to be addressed and corrected immediately. If left to its own devices this war will either lead to a man giving up and becoming submissive to his wife (the goal of most modern feminists) or lead to separation and possibly divorce (resulting when a man will not relinquish his God given authority).

As for women posting on this forum I see nothing wrong with it. I would however caution any Christian women to communicate their thoughts to their husbands before posting them to ensure that they are representing their household appropriately.
 
Fair enough, Scarecrow. Not too interested in arguing semantics. I agree with much of what you wrote.

But I stand by my definition's usefulness in differentiating between the two personality types, and the need for the differentiation in clearing up a common confusion.

"Where is the line", as asked by Steve? In the corporate culture from which this parallel is drawn, it is the point at which a decision is pronounced by the one responsible for doing so. (In the case of a corporation that might be a vote by the board, but a marriage isn't that, exactly.) Having said that, a wise decision maker will be decisive, yes, but not too hasty to do so. He will welcome, perhaps even REQUIRE spirited discussion first. (Concepts from "Death By Meeting" and "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team" by Patrick Lencioni.)

How do you get your lovely warrior to lay down her tomahawk? Dunno that you can. God didn't succeed with Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels. But, in my opinion, certain things might help.

** Education so as to have a clear understanding of this issue in place of current common confusion.
** The decision leader slowing down and making sure that he has heard all arguments. Folks NEED to feel as though they have been heard -- it is a sign of respect. I hear talk of "filling my love cup", and it's a good concept. Perhaps there is a similar "respect cup".
** Maybe the decision maker needs to make it clearer which side of the decision point the decision process is on via announcing clearly: "If all points have been heard, it is decision time. The decision is ... The team has now passed the decision point and it is time for us all, me included, to step into rank and take up our respective duties to help each other turn this decision into a success."

However, the beautiful warrior still, ultimately, has to decide what type of person to be in the organization.

Let me take it one step further, for conversation's sake: "A house divided against itself cannot stand." -- Jesus. And the decision maker is not allowed to abdicate. (When Adam tried, God held him responsible anyway.) If the warpaint won't come off, and the tomahawk won't go down, eventually in some valid manner the decision maker and the guerrilla warrior will have to go separate ways. A household at constant war is NOT a functioning family, a healthily growing environment. The question would then be how to define the "valid manner", but that may be a discussion for another thread.

Whaddaya think?
 
Scarecrow,

In your experiences with your multiple members of your family before they joined you how did you accomplish or determine (whichever may be the case) that they were submitted women? I'm curious to that since your're living this life too with more than one member.

I hope this is not too personal of a question. If so do not feel obligated to answer it as I will totally understand.

My perspective and practices have led me to believe that it is vitally important and fundamental for the man to wait long enough in the courtship for trials and issues to arise so that he can make decisions that require submission. In doing so it gives both time to see where problems in that area may arise, as well it too gives a lady time to train her spiritual muscles in that field as she curbs her natural tendencies to that of the one she wants to be her leader. For some ladies it might mean a 1 year long courtship, for others it might mean a 3 year courtship, or some other time frame.

That is a key as I see it but I'd really love to get your perspective on this since you have been living in this for some time with numerous ladies.
 
Excellent and thought provoking post Cecil thank you.
I agree that submission need not equal doormattery or lack of involvement or absence of ideas.
I like your idea that the forum is like an extended family where we can discuss ideas together.
 
"how did you accomplish or determine (whichever may be the case) that they were submitted women?"

In a previous topic about dating I kind of answered this vaguely. You also answered it in your post here. Early in the relationship I am very clear with them what submission is and clarify that submission is not domination. Then I give them small opportunities to be submissive and see how they respond. It is not very often that anyone needs to submit to a decision they don't like because we are usually in agreement. While each individual is different, many of the woman I have met have a natural tendency to be submissive. Their biggest enemy is our culture and its constant peer pressure to dominate a man. One of my ladies was very submissive initially, but over time has become somewhat rebellious and controlling. Another stated early on in our relationship that every man should have his own little kingdom, yet there is some jealousy and sometimes anger. The behavior is mirrored in the sitcoms and movies commonly seen today - and don't read any of the magazines at the grocery checkout counters...you'll throw up! I think it is a daily battle for most women, and some days they win other days they don't do so well. The best thing I can do is try to understand what they are dealing with and be as supportive as possible.
 
wow great title cecil! i think its important to know if a pontential wife knows her role or not, to avoid warfare later. But from experience, any of us can have trouble with submission and thats when the support of fellowship helps.
 
cecil:
good thought-provoking post.
i was thinking the other day about a boxing match in which the opponents are pounding the stink out of each other (not that marriage should resemble this :D ). but when the bell rings, the round is over. they both stand down even though they may see an opening and want to throw another punch or two. they respect the bell.
yes, it is not completely fair that the husband has the bell and decides when the discussion is over but there is no third party referee. if the husband does not have the right and responsibility to ring the bell it can easily degenerate into a school-yard brawl that has no end.
we all want to be agreed with and the mistake that we husbands sometimes make is that we continue the discussion far too long in the hope of finding that agreement. maybe there is a time to say: "i am fixin to ring the bell, do you have any points that you feel that i have not heard?", listen to them without argueing back and then close the discussion and announce the decision.
in some team sports the combattants come back out onto the field and shake hands after trying so hard to destroy each other. all the more so for people who are committed to each other for life? ;)
 
Good idea think i'll get me a bell. But I dont know if that would be anygood while in the ring with more than one wife. maybe a gavel (think thats how its spelled) that judges use would be better. lol
 
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