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Forget Polygamous Marriages

Has anyone else noticed the following observation:
I see that not only are the monogamaniacs feverishly opposed to looking directly
at the passages (as if they were the burning sun) regarding plural marriage, but that they
are in essence, opposed to even biblical monogamous marriage.

Is it just me? They are sort of a walking self-contradiction. They speak of one man and one woman only as being God's ideal marriage. But then they completely blank out when it comes to the passages and principles and illustrations from cover to cover of the Holy Bible when it portrays the ideal dynamic between the husband and the wife. That is, husband leading, wife following. They only say that they are for monogamy only in defense against polygamy. But in reality, they hate even monogamy marriages that follow the biblical design.

There are passages that speak of women being under obedience to their husbands. Sara was called holy for referring to her husband as her Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 alludes back to the law of Gen 3:16. The words subjection, obedience, submission and reverence are all used in the NT. And in Titus, the lack of obedience is connected to blasphemy. 1 Peter 3:1-3 connects being in subjection to husband as chastity. Judges 19:2 shows throwing off the headship of a husband as playing the whore.

But most churches, either from the pulpit or in the ladies bible class or other areas, are teaching that none of these verses teach what they seem to be teaching.

So in effect, most churches are against polygamous marriage because they are against marriage in general.

They will say that a man doesn't own his wife. Why that would put her in the position of being an inanimate object. But if a man does not own his wife, then that make the
marriage nothing more than a glorified prostitution.

If I say to my wife, I don't own you. Then that is an insult to her because I would be saying tantamountly You are a prostitute.

Oh what a confusing and frustrating situation. The churches have all gone astray. We are pushed out and have nowhere to go. Does anyone know where we can go and be accepted? Are you some of you Seventh Day Adventists? I don't know much about that church but maybe I should look into them.
 
You will be accepted here, man! Regardless of your current fellowship being a part of the bride or not, we on BF are a part of the called out ones. My personal situation is that my spiritual walk has been much stronger and closer to God since we have not been attending the established or traditional churches because I no longer rely on my pastor to be my high priest. I do find myself relying on the men of BF for spiritual sharpening so that I do not live with my own (heautou or idios, take your pick) plank in my eye.

When you posted about the other forum, I wrote a post about shaking off the dust and moving on, but did not post it. At some point we have to realize that if God wants someone to hear about polygamy, then He will open their ears about it. I am not saying that what the others wrote or did by going over to help you was wrong, but when you get to the point of frustration where you think your face is melting off your skull, then you should probably leave, at least for a time of refocus and rejuvination. I think that if you can tolerate staying where you are, then great. If your personality is like mine and you can't sit silently in a pew or sunday school seat and listen to false teaching and patriarch bashing, or even the complete miss that happens so often because the church likes to see the beginning of the Bible as starting with Matthew, and acts like Psalms and Proverbs are the preface, then I would suggest making your views known, and then after the second and third time, move on. If God can't change their mind through the presentation of His Holy Word in purity, then we are never going to be able to make them see it with anything that we do or say.

Oh, yeah, IMHO, of course.

Paul
 
Everything said above struck a chord with me. I mean everything. From the part about sitting in the pew having patriarchy bashing to the part about what is being omitted from the teaching.

My conscience feels violated every time I go to "church" now and I wish Jeff lived closer. We'd all worship together.
 
Every generation thinks they are smarter than those that came before, thus the patriarch bashing and false pride that comes from feminism and idea that we have more today than our Fathers of the Faith did in the Lord when the physically walked with Him and were called His Friends in their personal conversations. The "New" covenant somehow does away with all of God's Law, and with Patriarchy negated, the society is rapidly destroyed due to an absence of authority and heirarchy.

The forum that you are a part of had one woman that commented something like, "why do we always have to go to the greek?" in exasperation, as if the actual truth of what was intended is not important. We will see more and more (just like we do with our constitution) that people will openly admit that they don't care what the real or intended meaning was of those that penned our laws, because we are clearly smarter and know better. Of course, we all know that...

“Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.” Edmund Burke


I apologize in advance for this lengthy block and copy below, but it sums up nicely what I think is accurate regarding how easy it is for false teachings and beliefs to enter in to the church. I think the last reprint of this book was in the 1850's. I do not agree with the assumption that there was no science or literature, but you can't agree with everything someone writes....

"POLYGAMY AND ..... The Bible is a book written in a remote age, and in languages which have long since ceased to be spoken in the world. It was penned among a people comparatively rude; with little literature except that which is found in their own sacred writings, and with little or no science; in a land where the prevailing institutions, habits and opinions, were exceedingly unlike those of modern times; with no apparent anticipation on the part of the writers that the productions of their pens would be subjected to the rigid scrutiny of enlightened future ages, and no underlying idea that the doctrines and laws of the book would ever need to be adjusted to institutions and opinions which would spring up in far distant ages, and in lands of whose existence these writers never dreamed. It has come down to us through the darkest ages of the world, and has brought along with itself many of the opinions of those ages on moral subjects, and many of the interpretations which were affixed to it in those times. There is nothing more difficult to remove than interpretations long affixed to any book ; and especially if those interpretations become incorporated with religious doctrines.

The interpretation and,the doctrine become, in popular estimation, identified, and the one is regarded as being as sacred as the other. They are alike sanctioned by immemorial belief; they become a part of the creed of the church ; they are upheld by all the authority of Synods and Councils; they enter into the literature of those times, and constitute a part of the history of the world; they are venerated for their antiquity; they are loved as truths that have guided millions to a better world—that have sustained the saint on the bed of death, and comforted martyrs amidst the flames. It should be added, also, that those opinions may become the basis on which the superstructure of a powerful hierarchy has been reared, and the very props of a religion that has secured a universal ascendancy over mankind. To detach the interpretation, therefore, from the book is to undermine the foundation of the edifice:—and in the apprehension that this may be so, all the real love of truth in the church, and all the affected zeal of an interested hierarchy will be aroused-; all that there is of love for the venerable, the ancient, the pious, the holy—all the attachments to the system formed from interest, from the love of power, or from the hope of heaven, will be quickened into life. Accordingly, in the history of religion, nothing has been found to be more difficult, if not more hopeless, than to detach false interpretations from the Bible; there is nothing which is more likely to involve men in peril than the attempt to substitute a new and- more rational interpretation in the place of one that has been hallowed for ages.

It is well known, that in the views which prevailed in former ages in regard to the structure of the earth, it became a most difficult thing to separate these views from the prevailing interpretation of the Bible ; and for any one to entertain contrary views was regarded not merely as an error in science, but as a much more vital matter—a heresy in the church. The prevailing views in regard to astronomy and geography became identified with the doctrines of the church, and to promulgate a doctrine on those subjects at variance with what the Bible was supposed to teach, was regarded as justifying the extremest forms of persecution for heresy. In a council of clergymen that met in Salamanca in 1486, to examine and test the views of Christopher Columbus, a considerable portion held it to be grossly heterodox to believe that by sailing Westward the Eastern parts of the world could be reached. No one, it was held, could entertain such a view without also believing that there were " antipodes," and that the world was round, not flat:—errors denounced not only by great theologians of the golden age of ecclesiastical learning, such as Lactantius and St. Augustine, but also directly opposed, it was alleged, to the very letter of Scripture. "


They observed," says Washington Irving, " that in the Psalms the heavens are said to be extended like a hide,—that is, according to commentators, the curtain -or covering of a tent, which among the ancient pastoral nations was formed of the hides of animals; and that St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Hebrews, compares the heavens to a tabernacle or tent extended over the earth, which they thence inferred to be flat."*' Thus, also, it was in the well-known case of Galileo. * Life of Columbus.

The doctrine which he was required by the Church, to "abjure, curse, and detest," and which "he was never again to teach, because erroneous, heretical, and contrary to Seripture" was the doctrine of the earth's motion and the sun's stability. The doctrine derived by the Church from the Bible—a doctrine which had become as sacred as any other doctrine held by the Church—was, that the earth is the centre of the system, and that all the heavenly bodies revolve around it; and it seemed no less difficult to separate that doctrine from the teachings of the Bible, than it would have been to detach from it the doctrine of the Fall of Man, or the doctrine of the Trinity. So Voetius, a celebrated Dutch theologian of the seventeenth century, says, " This we affirm, that is, that the earth rests, and the sun moves daily round it, with all divines, natural philosophers, Jews and Mahommedans, Greeks and Latins, excepting one or two of the ancients, and the modern followers of Copernicus."

To show with what tenacity an interpretation of Scripture that has been received for ages as the true one is adhered to, and how difficult it is to detach such an interpretation, however absurd or erroneous from the Bible, it may be proper to refer to an argument of Turretin. He is arguing, " in opposition to certain philosophers," in behalf of the Ptolemaic doctrine that the sun moves in the heavens and revolves around the earth, while the earth itself remains at rest in the midst. " First," he remarks, " the sun is said in Scripture to move in the heavens, and to rise and set. ' The sun is as a bridegroom coming out of his chambers, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.' ' The sun knoweth his going down. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down.' Secondly. The sun by a miracle stood still in the time of Joshua, and by a miracle it went back in the time of Hezekiah. Thirdly. The earth is said to be fixed immovably. ' The earth is also established that it cannot be moved.' ' Thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.' ' They continue this day according to their ordinance.' Fourthly. Neither could birds, which often fly off through an hour's circuit, be able to return to their nests. Fifthly. Whatever flies or is suspended in the air, ought by this theory, to move from west to east, but this is proved not to be true, from birds, arrows shot forth, atoms made manifest in the sun, and down floating in the atmosphere."

From reasoning such as this, one of the most accomplished theologians of his age, and that age not a remote one; one who lived after Tycho Brahe, Kepler and Galileo had finished their labors; one who lived in the time of Isaac Newton—for when the work containing these sentiments was issued from the press, (1695,) Newton had attained his fifty third year ; one whose system of theology has been long used as a text-book in the Princeton Theological Seminary, and whose views have been regarded as the standard in training men for the ministry in the nineteenth century,—set himself against the most remarkable discoveries of his age or of any age. It is not wonderful, therefore, that old interpretations of the Bible, though founded in error, yet long retain their hold on the-public mind, even amidst the light of a very advanced age of the world. It has long been an opinion extensively held in the world, that the Bible is adverse to ... and polygamy
and so on, and so on....
 
I guess all that was to say don't beat yourself up or let yourself get overly frustrated. Why waste your energy on people who don't even take God's Word seriously. Don't cast your pearls type of thing. Those people are not special and neither are we that "get it." Each generation has this same thing going on, that's why the letters to the churches refer to even their times as the "last days."

Nothing new under the sun.
 
We left forever the "institutional church" about 6 years ago as well after having never asked for the microphone a single time in twelve years when it was not freely given. Our experience was most dominantly positive but it was made clear to us that...

"This is not the model in which you are to build"

Upon a synchronous connection and ensuing conversation, a gentleman recommended a book entitled "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola about a year and a half ago. To this day, it is my favorite "entry level" book that tends to make a large impact in the lives of those with "ears to hear" without overwhelming their religious circuits. You may enjoy it.

Sincerely,

Curtis

P.S. Very interesting insight above about general resistance to marriage. I think there is allot of truth in that.
 
Okay AHHHHHH I am all for submission and am glad you brought it up BUT the history scares me. I would have been stoned befor I ever had the chance to meet my lord and saviour Jesus Christ under a male dominate sociaty. Or I would be head dress wearing, uneducated (regardless of passages such as woman are for learning), and maybe even un aloud to speak on any issue including this one. I beleive in a holy spirit lead life wich does include bible understanding. And I am for being under a lord like Christ but let's face it in culutures where the comon belief is woman is submission it's a nightmare. That being sad Yes I want to call a husband Master onday as did Sarah.
 
Hello All,

Lest we find ourselves more hypocritical than those we criticize about polygyny, it would be well to remember that the same Scripture that tells us that wives are to submit to their husbands, also tells ALL believers to obey those who have the rule over you (context: Elders of the Church). Now granted, submission in Scripture is always conditional, that is, we are not to obey words that are contraire to Scripture. However, if we pound our chests in support of the Scriptural right of plural marriage, and submission of wives, we should equally pound our chests over ALL Scriptural truth. After all, All Scripture is profitable for doctrine...etc... It should, therefore, be understood that "the Church", warts and all, is God's program, and Jesus Christ Himself established this vision when He said, "i will build my church". Therefore, to the extent we are cooperating with "building the Church", to that extent, we are cooperating with the very vision of Christ. ...and for those who would say that "we are building the church because the church is us", I would say that this is a half-truth, for a true church, according to Scripture, does not only include believers, but it also includes Biblical leadership. Since we are "part" of the body of Christ, we should be very careful how we criticize it. Remember, when Apostle Paul was saved the Lord told Him that he, that is Paul, was persecuting the Lord. Paul was a little amazed, yet, the Lord made it very clear that to the extent Paul was going after the Church, to that extent, Paul was going after Christ Himself. In essence, we should be careful of having an "independant spirit" just because of a few views we may hold different than the majority of the body of Christ!
 
Pastor,
I don't know what your post means. I haven't the foggiest. Please look it over and you'll see that there does not appear to be a theme.

To Mary-Ella,
Your post quotes no scripture. You say the history scares you? What history?
The kind where people parrot things like women were oppressed thousands of years ago? That is just revisionist history oversimplified. How do we know all of this? The written records are extremely scarce.
 
Being able to hear from God and following Scripture is different then just following Scripture. Christian women recognize the need for Scripture, but if that is all there is then they can do that themselves. Perhaps they find exclusively Scripture wars not very appealing. Usually in the Greek or Hebrew there are a couple of definitions of the same passage. The man that can hear from God by the Holy Spirit then discerns truth based in Scripture. If all a man has to offer is Greek and Hebrew and a system to apply it to, then day to day following of a husband is lonely as the man who claimed to be a friend of God exudes no joy at having been with God, but rather a dry studiousness. Judging ourselves Christian by how well we know Scripture is an eternally risky hobby. Knowing the Lord and evidencing the joy of being with the Lord and His Spirit, brings more confidence in our eternal state and makes our friends and family more comfortable that they are following someone that may be able to hear from God.

John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
 
A few thoughts...

I have had a very positive experience with leadership in the background through which I was "groomed". We as a group really tried our best to fully embrace and fulfill the mandate of Eph 4:11-13 with selfless hearts. An honest survey of scripture and the book of Acts will yield that the "model" in which they built and related together as the "ekklesia" is far different than what you see and experience today.

Without going into the full implications, here are a few things we know...

- We are the "ekklesia" - the "called out ones of Yah" (Matt 16:18)
- We are a kingdom of "kings and priests" a "royal priesthood" (Rev 1:6, 1 Pet. 2:9)
- Our ministry giftings are given until "we all come to the unity of belief..." (Eph 4:11-13)
- We are not to exercise leadership as the "gentiles exercise lordship over them" (Mk 10:42)
- We definitely don't want to be like Diotrephes who "loves the preeminence" (see 3 John 1:9)
- We are to avoid the "doctrine of the Nicolaitians" (Greek nikao, to conquer, and laos, the people) (Rev 2:6)
(I understand the dispute relating to "Nicolaitians" but the same is implied above)

We also know with great certainty unfathomable corruption has lead to a loss in the very foundations upon which we are to build (Ps. 11:3) and truly "our fathers have inherited lies". (Jer 16:19)

Heb 12:25-29 I believe that the initial tremors of the "great shaking" are upon us. Knowing what you believe is one thing, knowing why you really believe it is yet another. Much is revealed in that process of discovery.

May we all have the grace to ask the right questions (Titus 2:12-15), the persistent courage to contend for the answers (Eze. 22:30 & Daniel 10), and the faithfulness to stand for the truth (John 16:2). The "rabbit hole" of deception goes far deeper than we realize.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

Curtis
 
Memphis Dwight said:
Pastor,
I don't know what your post means. I haven't the foggiest. Please look it over and you'll see that there does not appear to be a theme.

To Mary-Ella,
Your post quotes no scripture. You say the history scares you? What history?
The kind where people parrot things like women were oppressed thousands of years ago? That is just revisionist history oversimplified. How do we know all of this? The written records are extremely scarce.

I purposely made the message general. The bottom line is that we should avoid attacking the House of God, to include God's people, and attack the traditions of men. God's House is made up of real people, struggling with real issues, and we are to love them dearly. This is not the same as embracing their dogmas, but it is saying that we need to express the greatest measure of love towards fellow believers.

The truth of the matter is, if one is a true Berean, one will more than likely change a few views over their lifetime, and when we come across like everyone in totally wrong but us, we offend unnecessarily. Are words should be seasoned with love and grace, for there was a time that most of us didn't understand this truth as well. The Lord opened our eyes, and we need to be patient with fellow believers that do not have their eyes opened yet.

Furthermore, we, of all people (those who have been granted some measure of understanding in this area), should be most humble when we present this truth. For if we are not, the truth is lost in our presentation. Scripture tells us to be wise as serpents, yet, gentle as doves.
 
My thoughts on some of these post

Sorry I do that I thought that we all new about cultures today that exercise woman under submission to man? I also take for granted that every one knows were it says that Sarah called her husband master and was rewarded by asking other woman to do the same thing. Through out Christ's ministry I have not seen him say You will find this in Issah ext ext.... If he had said and it is finished plus the scripture you would find it in that wouldn't do much for the fluency of language would it. I will keep in mind that you wish me to be scholarly and a little less fluent in speech as I see this forum to be. Just as Paul wrote many letters hinting at scripture so am in the habit except he was a way better righter .
As far as leadership goes I am so pleased for all those who had a good experance with leaders in the past. Little Miss No in the name of christ spoken over my head, is not a fan of leadership and sees that people are allowed to rule with out any accountibility.
I also am seeing a huge flaw in the way that the human experience keeps pointing to other humans and even in simple discussions as this we can't seem to keep our eyes on heaven and yet on earth. I was earler expressing my fear of civilisation in all it's dipravity not on gods holy true nature. (do I need to point out the 3 scriptures I am thinking of here and apling)

PS I failed to see the theme as well but now that you have shared I must say AMEN
 
Oh I also wanted to add that when I first read the scripture in timothy regarding woman and submission I actualy through my bible across the room. At this point already so in love with Jesus I knew that it must be true and so I did study the issue. and today it is something I say in love to myself and other woman. I like to be submissive and it was such a little while ago. Food for thought on the way we grow and shape and change and are washed in the word (somewhere in proverbs)
 
Memphis Dwight said:
We are pushed out and have nowhere to go. Does anyone know where we can go and be accepted? Are you some of you Seventh Day Adventists? I don't know much about that church but maybe I should look into them.

First of all, Dwight, let me also recommend a book -- "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore" or something like that. You'll probably find it in the religious section of the books at Walmart. Very thought provoking.

However, after reading it through, and thinking things through, I still go to church -- at a Seventh-day Adventist church. And yes, it is a bit complicated.

Why do I still attend? A number of reasons. I don't have a problem with large convocations / corporate worship. It seems to be Biblical. So do church buildings / synagogues. I get blessings from good sermons, and appreciate programs and retreats and stuff that is only possible with organization. Others disagree and that is fine.

As to the SDA denomination, I was born and raised in it. So were at least 2 other members of this site who now worship elsewhere. Others on this site are now worshipping at SdA churches with some degree of acceptance.

However, we are technically not allowed to hold membership in the denomination, nor (therefore) office. The official denominational stance is most definitely monogamist. I quote the General Conference of SdA Working Policy 2005-2006 on the subject as follows:

It is clearly God’s plan that man should live in a state of monogamy, that a man should have only one living wife. Any contravention of this plan results in confusion and the lowering of the moral standards that should govern human society, and especially the Church. The practice of polygamy on the part of many non-Christian peoples for whom we are laboring is in itself a challenge to Christian principles, and constitutes a ground of compromise if permitted in the Christian church. The
denomination has therefore adopted the following policy:

1. A man found living in a state of polygamy when the gospel reaches him shall upon conversion be required to change his status by putting away all his wives save one before he shall be considered eligible for baptism and church membership.

2. Men thus putting away their wives shall be expected to make proper provision for their future support, and that of their children, as far as it is within their power to do so.

3. We recognize that the message finds people in certain countries living in a state of polygamy, where tribal customs subject a wife who has been put away to lifelong shame and disgrace, even to the point of becoming common property, her children also becoming disgraced thereby. In all such cases the church is to cooperate with the former husband in making such provision for these wives and children as will provide for their care and protect them from disgrace and undue suffering.

4. We recognize the right of a wife who has been put away by a polygamous husband to marry again.

5. Wives of a polygamist, who have entered into the marriage in their heathen state, and who upon accepting Christianity are still not permitted to leave their husbands because of tribal custom, may upon approval of the local and union committees become baptized members of the church. However, should a woman who is a member of the church enter into
marriage as a secondary wife, she shall be disfellowshipped and shall not be readmitted to the church unless she separates from her polygamous husband.

I found this this morning and was saddened and embarrassed thereby.

However, there is variance in practice and individual views. Some places in the world ignore this policy and baptize anyway. My congregation in Oregon disfellowshipped me years ago over PM. Other congregations have welcomed me with no qualms. "Us" since Cindy joined me. In one case, the pastor's MIS-handling of me/this vs. his board's acceptance resulted in his losing his church (IMO). In our most recent move, now living near Paul & DeeAnn, I went straight to the pastor and church board, presented who we were, and left them to decide whether they wanted us or not. Their position was a definite welcome. That extends to Paul & DeeAnn as well should they choose to attend.

Go figure. The SdA denomination DOES offer the advantage of Sabbath worship, within a framework that is more or less modern conservative Protestant in style, for those who like and approve of that. As with every denomination, there are things you'll approve, and things that will leave you shaking your head. Fortunately, ultimately it isn't about denominations but about Jesus, who accepts us with open arms.
 
There were a couple posts in this thread about submission, and 2 really good books come to mind:

1) regarding husband/wife relationships = "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006052 ... 0060520612

and

2) regarding spiritual authority = "Under Cover" by John Bevere http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cover-Promi ... 0785269916

I highly recommend both. The first one is of course, more geared towards women - but Dr. Laura does a great job explaining the differences between us and the roles we operate in.

The second is great teaching on how authority operates in our lives - and how we choose to respond to it. A must read.
 
Cecil,
A bit of my frustration is difficult to convey to some and the reason is because of the church I was associated with for most of my life. They are known as the Church of Christ. Not to be confused with the United Church of Christ. This group started off being so bible bound as did many others (Methodism, Baptists) but once relativism and existentialistic thinkers crept in unawares, the collective mindset began to be one in which truth was subject to democracy. Or how can we really be for sure of anything?

Take your most enthusiastic french philosophy agnostic and combine with some watered down version of christianity and you now have the modern Church of Christ.

Anyway.. I've seen so many families torn apart and they don't even know how and why things went wrong. And it was all in part due to the false and unbiblical idea that a family has two heads. If the older women would have been following the admonitions of Titus in teaching the younger women, some of the broken homes would not have happened that way.
If all it took was for a man to tell his wife that Christ would have her be obedient to him, then there would not be any directives for the older women to teach the younger. They have fallen down on the job.

<sorry, Pastor. I just call it like I see it.>
 
Oh Memphis you had me with the first post. It was brilliant and insightful and extremely original. But why this negative ending?
 
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