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Far Above Rubies

NickF

NickF

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
I gotta say, seeing my wife put herself under submission to what God calls good, and what I have asked of her is a beautiful thing.

I have heard and seen it asked, "what does it mean to be submissive?" and, "Is there a book for this?"

The answer is simply this. Ask your husband what he wants. Act like he is a general in the army, or the president of the USA, or the King of a kingdom. And ask him what he wants, how he wants it, and when he wants it. And then do it with a cheerful countenance.

Submissive means to put yourself under, to set aside your wishes and pick up another's. You submit to your boss at work by doing the work the boss wants, when and how the boss says. You don't do it with a bad attitude or talking back. The boss says get the job done and you say "Yes Boss!" It means to sit down and write out all the things that you know would please your man. How does he want you to dress? Are you doing that? Could you be doing that? What does HE like to eat? Are you feeding him that? Are you pursuing one of your goals and that's preventing you from meeting one of his goals?

I have children, and the expectation is that they obey me rather than do something they think is good. If they are instructed to go feed the goats, but they see some weeds need pulled, they don't stop to pull weeds, they feed the goats, check with me for the next thing, and if there is nothing, then they go pull those weeds. If your man has a priority or something that needs done, put his needs first and yours second. I absolutely GUARANTEE that if you do this, you will turn his whole attitude into mush about you and towards you. You will secure his heart and love in a way you never knew possible. You will captivate his heart and soul.

I put this under testimonies because I'm praising my Lord for a wife who is fully submitted to me, and through that submission, she is also under God's authority. She is seeking my will in everything. If I say we need to tighten up spending, there is no question, she simply says "Yes sir", or "ok!". She cooks what I want to eat, when I'm gone for work, she cooks the things she and the kids like to eat that I don't like. I've never asked that of her, but her heart is to do my will, and to please me. She's looking for ways to bless and please me. My energy levels are high, my motivation is extreme, my desire towards her is exceptional. I'm getting more done now than ever before. I can't imagine doing this life without her, and it's all because of the amazing woman she has blossomed into.

Your man has a mission in life. You are his weapon of warfare, the tool he needs to accomplish the task. You are his form fitted help. If you notice a corner is a bit too sharp and pokey, get some sand paper out and smooth that bit off so that it fits what he needs. Focus on how to form to YOUR man's needs. Don't get a book written by some woman, or some man describing what he wants in a woman. He's not your man. Go to your man. I promise if you ask, he will probably have some suggestions. If he doesn't then I bet if you thought about it hard enough you could come up with one thing a week to do better or differently that you know would please him.

If you reflect on this and realize you have not been this kind of woman. Or your man is cold towards you, or grouchy all the time. You might want to consider going to him and apologizing for not being this way. Ask him those questions and then straight away start doing them. If you need to, write down a list of things to remember to do daily. If he likes lipstick *gross* then put the nasty stuff on yo lips. If he would be more comfortable with you wearing a headcovering. Pull up a browser or catalogue and ask him what kind, pick it out and ask if that's too much to spend. If he says buy it, put that sucker on the moment you get it and show it off with a big smile. You might hate the idea, and he might decide after a week that he was wrong and it's dumb. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that you learned there was something he likes or wants and you immediately conformed to his goal. You could say you got in line behind him and started walking where he was leading. You might even call it being submitted to his headship. Make it a habit to ask him every month, what could you be doing differently or better. Don't fear this kind of obedience or submission. Your actions will win him like nothing else could. He will desire to hold you back from doing too much. He will want to protect and shelter you. My wife says I give her "sweet eyes" every time she looks at me.

This level of trust and seeking my good is such a blessing that it fuels me to do more and more for her. I look for ways to bless her and to provide for her. Her attitude towards me, her submission, her seeking to please me, elevates her in my mind and in my heart to the most treasured thing in the world. I would give all that I have to keep her. I would sacrifice everything to protect and provide for her.

If you ladies want to know what submission looks like, ask her. I'm serious... I'm blown away by her attitude and obedience. There are many wonderful women on this forum but I think I have the best.

(Sorry ladies, I'm sure you're great too)
(Not sorry fellers) :D ;)
 
@NickF what a wonderful post! I love how you told of the benefits to a wife if she truly embraces being submissive. It truly reflects all our walks as we do our best to follow our Lord in the things He wants us to do. It is hard at times and takes patience but the blessing from Him is always better than being against his Will. May this post encourage any lady who reads it to make one or more changes in her relationship with her husband.
 
I’ll make a parallel post for men. Just wanted to highlight the purpose and the fruit of obedience. She has told me she is more fulfilled and happy in our relationship than ever before. So am I. It’s been remarkable the transformation it’s made in me. Maybe we can get @CatieF to chime in with her thoughts 😁
 
NickF said:
The answer is simply this. Ask your husband what he wants. Act like he is a general in the army, or the president of the USA, or the King of a kingdom. And ask him what he wants, how he wants it, and when he wants it. And then do it with a cheerful countenance.
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Well said. I treat my husband like a general and like a US general he has demonstrated his leadership, he's earned his rank, and by looking at the stars on a general's uniform I can make a lot of justifiable assumptions about what it took for him to be granted that rank by other military leaders.

I have respect for generals and I've never been in the army.

Likewise I have respect for my husband and for other good men whose leadership is demonstrated by their success, their family, their wife/wives, and above all their obvious love for God and their faith in Christ Jesus.

But if a man is a private and has yet to earn his rank then he also has yet to earn anyone else's respect and he should not expect their submission.

So if a man wants to be treated like a general then he can't act like a private.
 
MeganC said:
But if a man is a private and has yet to earn his rank then he also has yet to earn anyone else's respect and he should not expect their submission.

So if a man wants to be treated like a general then he can't act like a private.
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When a woman marries a man, she has defacto conferred upon him the rank of general and is obligated to treat him as such.

Pick your men wisely, because you don’t get to decide that he is only a private after you marry him.
 
MeganC said:
But if a man is a private and has yet to earn his rank then he also has yet to earn anyone else's respect and he should not expect their submission.

So if a man wants to be treated like a general then he can't act like a private.
Click to expand...
I understand where you're coming from, but I approach it from a strictly scriptural standpoint. The simple scriptural expectation is submission, no matter his worthiness. I can guarantee I am not worthy of the submission my wife gives me. I'm not worthy of the gifts she gives me daily. Just as I'm not worthy of the sacrifice Jesus made for me. I can only operate in the position I'm told to function in. That is bought and paid for, covered, owned, slave, child of God, Bride of Christ. Worthiness means absolutely nothing.

When a woman becomes a man's possession, she is to treat him like a general, not a private. It is through her faithful obedience that she will help him become worthy of her submission. Her faithful obedience and submission elevates him far above what he would have been otherwise. He will become praised in the gates. Her submission is not contingent upon his worthiness. His worthiness is often a result of their combined efforts, his to become a better man, and her lifting him up, supporting him, encouraging him, building him (and her house) up.
It is a very dangerous thing to take the stance of "I'll treat him like a king when he starts acting like one" The woman who acts and thinks like that might be cutting his feet out from under him while expecting him to sprint. She just might transform a private into a bold man of leadership and power who becomes a general through her obedience to God in submitting and building him up.

1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Yes, a man SHOULD act in a worth manner. He should earn true respect and honor. He should demonstrate it through diligence and faithfulness. I learned a long time ago, if you act like you own the place, people assume you do own the place. So yes, he shouldn't "expect submission" But she should expect to submit through his errors and failures, bad leadership, and bad days. His failures will hurt more. And he will grow in wisdom and skill to lead well. He will through trials become worthy of that great reverence his woman bestows on him. But if she is wise, she will reverence him when he is unworthy, so that he will one day become worthy of her submission and reverence.
 
I understand Scripture and the truth of God's Wisdom is clear.

But the reality is that in the world we live in divorce happens and women are not chattel. You can tell us to submit all you want. You can cite Scripture until the end of the world. Some women might submit to you out of obedience to Scripture but others will tell you where to go. Others will simply leave you alone with the comfort of knowing how right you are and how wrong she is. Yet you will still be alone.

Something I wrote earlier applies here:

A man who wants his wife to submit to him must be a good man.
A man who wants his wives to submit to him must be an even better man.
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Here is something I have observed here on BF:

Men who have more than one wife don't make a big deal about Scriptural submission because they don't have to. It's obvious that they've figured out their role and their wife and wives see this and willingly submit to their proven leadership.

My point is that if you figure out what it means to be a leader of a family, the provider for that family, and then your spiritual leadership of your family comes through your own relationship with God and Christ Jesus then you won't need to say anything about your family submitting to you. They will want to follow you all on their own.

You mention generals and I'll mention General George Patton. I read the book about him A Genius for War and something that was clear all the way through his life was that he never had to remind anyone that the Uniform Code of Military Justice required his subordinates to submit to his command. He proved himself over and over again and even when it would have been easier to fire him for his flaws he was still called to fight the Germans. The men under his command followed him and performed amazing acts because even when they didn't like him they trusted his leadership. They knew he cared about them and in the Battle of the Bulge he paid for winter clothing supplies for his troops out of his own pocket.

He one time asked an entire army to leave the front, march 100 miles on foot, and then enter battle as soon as they arrived. And they did. His leadership inspired men to do amazing things. And there was no question of his men submitting to his leadership. They understood that the fastest way to get home was to follow General Patton.

My husband doesn't talk about submission. But when I married him it was quickly made clear to me that this was expected of me. He never said it but his actions made it understood. And I didn't have to join his family. I wasn't sold to my husband, there was no arrangement, there was no dowry, there was no handshake. I joined of my own free will because I saw my husband's family and I wanted to be part of it. It was clear that he was the leader of his family and it's a wonderful family. Imperfect, but wonderful.

General Patton wasn't a dictator. He listened to his subordinates and made his plans accordingly. My husband wanted our family to move to Texas and it was a very unpopular idea and then circumstances made us stay where we were. My husband accepted this and the work he was doing in Texas ended and now his job is in California. Turned out that had we all submitted then a lot of money, effort, and feelings would have been spent for nothing gained.

A wise general listens to his officers.

And he is rewarded with more loyalty than he had before.

You can probably count on me to have something to say on future submission topics. But the heart of it is that if you're a good and Godly man then you won't need to remind anyone of this fact. Women will see it for themselves and want to be with you.
 
Love it and totally agree, I think we may be talking past each other. There's human nature, sinful will, emotions, and a corrupt culture that endorses and puts pressure on people to behave a certain way.

What you wrote is TOTALLY the reality on the ground. Not disputing that in the least. Absolutely agree that men should behave like men. That they should lead with strength and steel in their spines. Blazing trails, providing and protecting. And that a good leader will not be a tyrant. He won't lord over his women the authority he is given by God. He won't be an unmerciful dictator. He will be kind but firm. Gentle but unwavering. Listen but act with resolution.

I was the lead safety on a 100+ million dollar project with 75+ guys in the field. Safety guys are hated in construction. Derided and despised. Work stops when he comes through an area, they have only as much respect as is necessary because they have power over men to take their income away. My crew loved me, they sought me out and encouraged me to be where they were working. They actually asked how they could improve and safeguard themselves and their co-workers. I led by example, with humility and a heart to serve, not dominate. I got up on a 10 story roof and drove fasteners, helped pull cable, installed conduit. I worked with them, and they said to each other "Guy1: Have you ever seen a safety guy actually work? Guy2: "Not in 20 years have I ever seen one of you guys actually helping someone"

Making sure you don't misconstrue my intent. There's a difference between what a woman "should do according to scripture" and what she is "inclined to do according to her flesh". If a man is wise, he will follow what you have written out. If a woman is wise, she will obey God no matter the culture or cost, no matter if her man is acting like a good leader or not. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of submission. Just illustrating the impact Catie's submission has had on me, and offering that as encouragement to women who might be struggling with an imperfect husband. (cause none of us dudes are perfect)

Illustrating and encouraging with our lived experience that when I was yet unworthy, she acted like Sarai and called me Lord. I am still unworthy of that treatment, but she is obeying God and being righteous in her obedience. That obedience encourages me and makes me deeply desire to be more and better. And as a consequence, we are happier than we've ever been. She's more fulfilled than she's ever been in our relationship, as am I. It's like God knows what he's talking about and obedience brings about sweet fruit for all involved.
But back to the talking past each other.

It seems like you're saying "Men should act like generals if they want to be obeyed and submitted to" and it almost seems like you're implying that "women shouldn't or don't have to submit and obey if the man isn't acting properly" or maybe "men shouldn't expect their women to submit if they act like soyboys or tyrants"

I'm saying "Men should act like generals if they want to be obeyed and submitted to", and "women should be obedient and submit even if the man doesn't act right, because that's what God says they should do"

That a fair summary? I'm not trying to misconstrue your position or strawman.
 
I am not saying that women should not obey and submit to a man who doesn't act right. I'm simply saying that most women won't. And that includes most Christian women.
 
MeganC said:
I am not saying that women should not obey and submit to a man who doesn't act right. I'm simply saying that most women won't. And that includes most Christian women.
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Awesome, love to find clarity in communication. I thought you meant "most women won't". I absolutely agree.

I want to encourage men to be men, grow a pair, let that pair grow up into a spine, and let that spine turn into a sword to blaze a trail or slay enemies.
 
NickF said:
The simple scriptural expectation is submission, no matter his worthiness.
Click to expand...
Excellent point. When it comes down to worthiness, none are worthy. Not only are we not worthy of the regard we seek from others, but we're certainly not worthy of the Love and Grace Yah bestows upon us.

In the context of this discussion, no woman is any more worthy of being covered that the man to whom she submits is worthy of being submitted to.

@steve is right on the money: women, choose your generals wisely.
 
MeganC said:
Something I wrote earlier applies here:
A man who wants his wife to submit to him must be a good man.
A man who wants his wives to submit to him must be an even better man.
Click to expand...
What I wrote above inspires me to write this, Megan: I do entirely get where you're coming from, and I do understand that the secular culture permits women to behave as if they don't have to go by the rules just like it permits men to be horse's asses as well, but your formulation (above) leaves out one of the next logical assertions:

Any woman who wants her man to be the type of better man who qualifies to be the husband of multiple wives should surely be expected to be a much better woman than the women who only expect to be with a man who would never qualify to be a plural husband.

It works both ways. Most women these days -- and this applies even to most women within Biblical Families -- have too high expectations for their men and too low expectations for themselves. They tend to want their men to rise to every capability while still being permitted themselves to remain spiritually undeveloped.
 
Furthermore, whatever men should do should be determined by Yah, and to whatever extent those shoulds should be enforced on Earth, it should only be done by their fellow supportive men -- and not by women.
 
MeganC said:
I am not saying that women should not obey and submit to a man who doesn't act right. I'm simply saying that most women won't. And that includes most Christian women.
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And, consequently, most women spend the vast majority of their final two or three decades on Earth alone and in relative poverty. I know, @MeganC, that you are not one of those women, but every truly stubborn woman who is waiting for Mr Perfect to deliver her to Nirvana rather than submitting to a man who is just as imperfect as she is demonstrates foolhardiness.

I'll go even further and assert that it's just as foolish for men to seek personal perfection in pursuit of such women.

Or further: Yah is not demanding that men prove themselves worthy of covering women who haven't even provided any indication that they're interested in either being covered or providing their end of the bargain in one of the families that would be willing to provide them that covering.

I believe it's somewhat insidious to make assertions that propagandize men into believing they have to be top-flight men before they'll be worthy of having more than one wife. Women who are in the position of being uncovered do not in any way deserve a better class of men than the women who are already covered. If anything, they might deserve less, which is what necessitated Exodus 21:10, an admonition from our LORD that we are to rise above the default setting, which would be to treat additional wives with less regard, given that most of them are leftovers in one sense or another. Yah exhorts us to treat all wives equally, and if that were just part of human nature or a worldwide expectation, it wouldn't have had to have been articulated. Forgive my bluntness, but f*** those women who look at us as not-yet-worthy of their attention. Such women are even more guilty than the average woman of failing to come close to acknowledging what men in general and the individual men in their lives do for them each and every day that they take for granted but simply couldn't live without for more than a couple months if men disappeared from the face of the earth all of a sudden.

I want an emoji with steam coming out of its ears!
 
NickF said:
I want to encourage men to be men, grow a pair, let that pair grow up into a spine, and let that spine turn into a sword to blaze a trail or slay enemies.
Click to expand...
Amen, as do I, and I've pounded the keys here many times about how submission is to a large extent dependent on leadership -- but that does not mean that men owe women their leadership, any more than Yah owes men His Grace.

I therefore don't agree with your statement quoted by @MeganC: "Men should act like men if they want to be obeyed and submitted to," in large part because it's too vague as well as being hierarchically out of whack. The word 'men' is used twice and becomes circular. If they're men, then there's nothing they can do but act like men, because they're men, and they're therefore acting like themselves, which are men. It's corollary would be, "Women should act like women if they want men to love them." And, in the real world, if women are waiting for men to be generals, and men are waiting for women to be lieutenants, nothing will ever get done by anyone but a very, very small minority. Everyone else will just be waiting.
 
This morning I've been watching an old Kevin Samuels episode during which he asserts that one of the problems with black boys being raised only by their mamas is that the lack of father example translates into many men being prone to emotionally reacting like women, which then includes having temper tantrums about being told that this makes them feminine. The mistake they make is in only interpreting femininity as weakness. (And, btw, the mistake those among us who are non-black can make is to think we're immune from this danger, given that we're all being raised in a feminized culture, most especially if our own fathers provide an example of knuckling under.)

On many occasions I have wondered if Yah's greatest Wisdom wasn't demonstrated in Genesis 2 when He separated male and female by removing the female angular organs from The Human Being -- and doing so in a way that combined the more volatile emotional tendencies with the body possessing lesser strength. Imagine the horror it would be for women if the gaslighting they regularly do about men supposedly having inadequate emotional control were actually the rule of the day and men were a combination of brute strength and volatile emotions but women were significantly weaker but far less prone to being emotionally labile. That would be unending horror for women and children, and if there ever was a Stone Age, humanity would have never emerged from it.

I do agree that men are tasked with becoming the leaders they are meant to be -- but not for the purpose of proving themselves to women. What large numbers of men and women consistently fail to recognize is that men don't have to do anything to get women. Collectively, men are, in fact, already stuck with all of the women (and, also in fact, women only have the sexual-gatekeeping power because men collectively enforce that on each other; by collective agreement, freedom from rape could disappear in an instant). We have responsibility for them whether we like it or not. We can look around and see what the abdication of leadership on the part of over half of all men hypnotized by postmodernist feminism has wrought us, so it should be obvious that lack of leadership is culturally self-destructive, but for whatever reasons it's not obvious (even within our ranks it's not). The problem is that it's not just an intellectual exercise -- women are glorious creatures who will always entice and inspire us, but by their very nature, which most assuredly includes never being able to fully take care of themselves, women are also a collective burden from which we cannot escape. Men who bow out of the marital marketplace will also always have to be carried by the men who don't bow out, but no man who is willing to cover even one woman should ever be told by a woman that he doesn't deserve what is essentially the taking on of more than his share of the collective burden (polygyny). The uncomfortable truth for women is that they will never deserve what men are willing to do for them, just as we men will never deserve what Yah is willing to do for us.
 
Keith Martin said:
What I wrote above inspires me to write this, Megan: I do entirely get where you're coming from, and I do understand that the secular culture permits women to behave as if they don't have to go by the rules just like it permits men to be horse's asses as well, but your formulation (above) leaves out one of the next logical assertions:

Any woman who wants her man to be the type of better man who qualifies to be the husband of multiple wives should surely be expected to be a much better woman than the women who only expect to be with a man who would never qualify to be a plural husband.

It works both ways. Most women these days -- and this applies even to most women within Biblical Families -- have too high expectations for their men and too low expectations for themselves. They tend to want their men to rise to every capability while still being permitted themselves to remain spiritually undeveloped.
Click to expand...

100% agreement from me here. But one comes before the other. If a man is going to lead then he must lead by example. And then he has every right in the world to expect his wife/wives to do their part.
 
Keith Martin said:
I believe it's somewhat insidious to make assertions that propagandize men into believing they have to be top-flight men before they'll be worthy of having more than one wife.
Click to expand...

I don't. Because if a man is not a top-flight man then why shouldn't a woman pursue a monogamous marriage that comes with a lot less problems than a poly marriage?

The simple reality is that a pretty decent man can find a wife. But only an above-average man is going to find two because if he's nothing special then why would a potential plural make all the sacrifices she has to make to be with him?

That doesn't mean he has to be rich but it definitely means he has to be a good steward of the gifts God has provided to him. If he can be trusted with a little then God will see clear to trust him with more...such as more wives.
 
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