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Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship?

JustAGuy

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Hi all,

When Jesus says, "...the man you're with now isn't your husband..." could he be observing they're not in the full-fledged version of marriage - they're in the concubine version (e.g. their children get no formal inheritance share of his wealth when he dies, etc)?

Is this an ok understanding of the passage? Why or why not? Or are they not married at all?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 ... eress.html Excerpts below

When the woman says that she has had five husbands and the one she is with now is not her husband, it sounds like she is confessing sexual immorality. It sounds like she has treated marriage flippantly in the past, and is now cohabitating. But our assumption clashes with the other details John gives. He presents her as an inquisitive religious seeker who is trusted—perhaps even admired—by her fellow townspeople. John presents her as an inquisitive religious seeker who is trusted—perhaps even admired—by her fellow townspeople.

So if she wasn’t sexually promiscuous, what could explain her history and current situation? It’s unlikely that she was divorced five times, each for committing adultery. No man would dare marry a convicted adulteress with neither fortune nor fame. That she was a serial divorcée is also unlikely. She would’ve needed the repeated help of a male advocate to do so. Further, we have no evidence that anyone in the ancient world, man or woman, divorced five times. The closest parallel is the first-century B.C. General Pompey the Great, who married five times: he was divorced twice and widowed twice.

And since barrenness was not always a cause for divorce, we cannot assume she was divorced for that reason. Think of the long, childless marriage of Elizabeth and Zechariah, who were blessed late in life with a son, John the Baptist. Yet if she was known to be barren, can you imagine five men risking marriage to a woman everyone knew was infertile? Not in their culture.

It is more likely that her five marriages and current arrangement were the result of unfortunate events that took the lives of several of her husbands. Perhaps one or two of them divorced her, or maybe she initiated divorce in one case. As for her current situation, maybe she had no dowry and thus no formal marriage, meaning her status was similar to a concubine’s. Perhaps the man she was currently with was old and needed care, but his children didn’t want to share their inheritance with her, so he gave her no dowry document. Perhaps he was already married, making her his second wife. <snip>

Scripture doesn’t tell us why she had five husbands, but exploring first-century realities helps us imagine how her life might have unfolded.

Five clues in the text support the view that John’s Gospel does not condemn her as an immoral sinner, but highlights her as a seeker of truth.

First, while losing spouses was a tragic reality, being a widow or divorcée five times was unheard of. This means Jesus could not have guessed her situation; it was clear that his knowledge of her was divine.

Second, her response reminds us of Nathanael (1:43–49). As Nathanael approached Jesus, Jesus said to him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit” (v. 47). Stunned, Nathanael asks why Jesus would say such a thing. Jesus replies that he saw Nathanael under a fig tree just moments beforehand. Jesus knew Nathanael’s earnest desire to serve God, thus demonstrating Jesus’ prophetic, messianic character.

Jesus could not say to the Samaritan woman that she served God well, because she, a Samaritan, held erroneous religious beliefs. But he could speak about her identity. Like most women, her identity was tied to her father, husband, or son. By knowing her history and current situation, Jesus signaled to her that he knew her. And, like Nathanael, she was astounded at Jesus’ power.

Third, John presents her—along with other women, such as Martha (11:21–27)—as theologically astute or inquisitive.

Fourth, Jesus does not label her as a sinful woman. He doesn’t say to “go and leave your life of sin,” as he enjoined the adulterous woman in John 8:11. Instead, he talks with her about deep theological truths, including the claim that God must be worshiped “in the Spirit and in truth” (4:24). Those who say she is licentious often argue that she tries to divert Jesus’ attention from her past by asking an unrelated religious question. But would Jesus really be dissuaded from pursuing his case? That happens nowhere in the Gospels. Why wouldn’t she have religious questions? She probably had a hard life, and perhaps, like Naomi in the Book of Ruth, wondered, Where is God? Here is a man who might have answers, so she asks him questions that have puzzled her.

Finally, the fact that the townspeople listen to her testimony suggests that she was not a shunned sinner. They believe Jesus is the Messiah not because of the disciples’ preaching, nor because she allegedly changed her ways, for that would take time to validate. Rather, they believe because of her testimony. They probably knew she had religious questions and was not easily swayed by every preacher passing through. She was, therefore, a credible witness.

For most early church and medieval interpreters, the Samaritan woman was a careful, polite seeker—a sinner who, once illumined, truthfully witnessed her new faith to others. But in the Reformation, she became a symbol of promiscuity. Whereas the church fathers believed Jesus was revealing himself to her, says historian Craig Farmer, the Reformers suggested that Jesus was revealing herself to her to get her to see her sin and repent.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

I think first we should clear up some language issues. In the bible, in either testament, the word "husband" does not exist as a word that is distinct from the word "man". In fact, the word Jesus uses is translated "husband" 50 times, but translated "man" over 150 times!

The significance is that the exchange could also be rendered "Go call your man and come back" "I have no man" "You have well said 'I have no man' for you have had five men and he whom you now have is not your man, in this you have spoken the truth".

This might clear up things for us, because even if she was a concubine she would still "have" a man.

Furthermore, Jesus says "he whom you now have is not your man". The word for have is 'echo': a verb meaning to hold or possess. The word for your is 'sou': a pronoun meaning belonging to you. (loosely. I'm not a scholar, just a hack with a computer, so double check me).

Therefore the distinction Jesus was making wasn't "hah! I know that your man isn't your husband, he is in fact your... uh... harem-lord." (honestly, does English have a word for this?) But it looks like He is saying "The man you possess isn't YOUR man. He does not belong to you".

I would suppose that if she were a concubine, she would be able to rightly say "I have a man" without need for correction.

My guess is that this woman has either left or been rejected by five previous husbands, (according to our vernacular) and her current lover has decided not to marry her for whatever reason. I have like zero idea what the cultural norms were in Roman controlled West Bank Samaritan life were, so I don't think I could address how "likely" her situation would have been, culturally speaking. I can say that her relationship record would fit as only a slight anomaly in modern western society.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Always (ok well usually ;) ) a fun read Slumber. Seems a valid interpretation. This debate goes to show how much we tend to take for granted when we read. Well, I tend to anyway.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Thanks... Checking it out in my interliner....
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Um, so the Greek isn't clear on the woman's relationship w/said man... She says she doesn't have a man. But Jesus responds saying she had 5 men, and currently has a man, but he is not her's...

Huh? What does this mean? Why the word twist?

Thanks,

-JAG

Not to self: As Slumberfreeze said, the word is "ἄνδρα" literally "a man" Strong's word 435... http://biblehub.com/greek/435.htm The interlinear (attached) literally translates it as, "He to her; go off sound the man of you and come to this place. Answered the woman and said to him; not I have a man. Says to her the Jesus; well you said, "man not I have; five for men you had, and now whom you have not he is of you man; this true you have said."
 

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Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

It's not really a twist. She -has- a man, but he isn't hers. Like is she had a clock in her hands, but she hasn't paid for it yet, or it belongs to someone else.

Technically the clock is in her hands, but it isn't hers.

My guess is that she has a lover who hasn't married her.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Technically the clock is in her hands, but it isn't hers.
Does this have-the-clock-but-don't-own-it-type-relationship happen elsewhere in the Bible? Or during this historical time frame?

My guess is that she has a lover who hasn't married her.
The article above argues otherwise... I used to think this too... Not sure I'm there now...

Could this have been a concubine-esque relationship? (which would make it a "sinless" arrangement although maybe less-ideal (?) than full wife status...)

Thanks so much for weighing on on this. Much appreciated.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

JustAGuy said:
Does this have-the-clock-but-don't-own-it-type-relationship happen elsewhere in the Bible? Or during this historical time frame?

As a matter of fact it does! Mark 6:18 For John had said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have (echo) thy (sou) brother's wife.

Herod "had" (held, possessed) his brother's wife. His brother was "his" (belonged to him) but his brother's wife was not his in this sense.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

A simple answer is simply that they haven't slept together. This would mean of course that he wasn't her husband. If her life to this point was extremely dysfunctional is very possible that there was some severe damage expressed in this relationship. It would also add another layer to her surprise at Christ's knowledge of her intimate life.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

The author is stretching.

"Perhaps he was already married, making her his second wife." - which would mean she has a husband. This demonstrates that the author is trying to make a point even in the face of obvious facts.

You are not supposed to have a man unless he is your husband. Since she has a man and he is not her husband, she is in the wrong. For some reason the author does not seem to like this: "John’s Gospel does not condemn her as an immoral sinner" - I disagree. Why would Jesus make a point about her situation if it were not an issue?

At the start of the article he says she is "trusted even admired". Simply because they people listened to her? I do not think so.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

I would agree that the concubine angle is implausible. I like the perspective of these two Bible commentaries:

Believer's Bible Commentary:
As the Lord Jesus was sitting by the well, a woman came out from the village to draw water. If, as some scholars say, it was noon, it was a very unusual time for women to go to the well for water; it was the hottest part of the day. But this woman was an immoral sinner, and she may have chosen this time out of a sense of shame because she knew that there would be no other women there to see her. Of course, the Lord Jesus knew all along that she would be at the well at this time. He knew that she was a soul in need, and so He determined to meet her and rescue her from her sinful life.

Sermon Bible Commentary:
The story of the woman of Samaria is the history of one whom Christ found a bitter ignorant sinner, and left a large-hearted, devoted missionary.

The inhabitants of the city didn't listen to her because she had a good reputation (she was an outcast), but because she demonstrated a changed life! This is the gospel story repeated over and over again -- Christ came to bring sinners to repentance and salvation!
 
Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine

Another option is that she was an adulteress. She had had five husbands, had run away from the fifth but was still married to him, and had started a relationship with another man. He is not her husband, because he cannot be, she's still married to the fifth. But she doesn't have the fifth either because she's run away from him.

Throughout scripture, if a man takes a woman (either as a wife or concubine), he's called her husband. The only way I can see for a woman to completely clearly have a man who is not her husband is for her to be already married to someone else.

All this is rather speculative. We might all be wrong. This woman probably had a really screwed up life we just can't even begin to put together from this one brief comment.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Is it real that even nowadays some women are in a concubine relationship to a poly married man?
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Concubinage is not completely understood in our time. As far as I can tell it means a woman who's children won't be included in the inheritance. I have to admit that I don't personally think it's something a Godly man would not do to his children but it's allowed in scripture so it can't be forbidden or condemned.

But if you keep in mind the foundational principles of this forum, that God's laws and definitions concerning family and sex are eternal and absolute then it becomes clear that concubinage still exists and that many relationships probably fall into the category. As far as telling you what that would look like in the modern world, I have no idea.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

It is my understanding that concubine falls under one or two possible categories. I'm not a know-it-all when it comes to the Scripture, Greek, Hebrew, Etc. But this is my understanding.
The first is the slave wife. Second is the lesser wife status.

Before anybody gets all excited that I said slave wife, let me define what that means. If you're thinking in modern terms of sex slavery, or slavery for life. I don't think that is really what it means. Instead I think it is more along the lines of this.- Let's say a man takes a slave girl to work in his house.
Ground number 1 is that she can only be a slave girl for 7 years. A more accurate definition would be a indentured servant. Freedom is within grasp and is at set time. Now while this indentured servant is in his service he takes a particular liking / love for her and married her before her time is up. She was married under the status of slave / indentured servant. Thereby not being in status of free woman in marriage.
If this is correct then it brings us to the second possibility as well. Being that of less than full wife status.
I have discussed with individuals several possibilities as to what less than wife status is. Some argue it is something as simple in modern times has only one wife having the marriage license. Others say it was a marriage that was not completed. (The contract, the consummation, and the marriage supper / feast.)
Yet others go even further and say it is as a wife who is not a part of the family regularly. Example , she lives in another country or away in some other way. This one I tend to disagree with.


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Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Ok. I guess those that actually live it these days would probably not really talk about it which is why it is more likely to remain an assumption.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

Well I was not trying to say everything on assumption. There are some scriptures to back these ideas or at least ground them. It might be some time (if you want) before I can post them though.

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Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

torahlovesalvation said:
Well I was not trying to say everything on assumption. There are some scriptures to back these ideas or at least ground them. It might be some time (if you want) before I can post them though.
Yea, if you don't mind please share what you see as relevant.
 
Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

I would like to start this post in saying that that scriptures used here are not exhaustive on this topic, and I don’t know how many more there are to make it so.

Also some context.

1)Slavery is more like 7 year indentured servitude scripturally, with the exception of the Gibonites.

(Joshua 9) 20We must let them live so we can escape the curse attached to the oath we swore to them.” 21The leaders then added, “Let them live.” So they became woodcutters and water carriers for the whole community, as the leaders had decided.22Joshua summoned the Gibeonites and said to them, “Why did you trick us by saying, ‘We live far away from you,’ when you really live nearby? 23Now you are condemned to perpetual servitude as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God.” 24They said to Joshua, “It was carefully reported to your subjects how the Lord your God commanded Moses his servant to assign you the whole land and to destroy all who live in the land from before you. Because of you we were terrified we would lose our lives, so we did this thing. 25So now we are in your power. Do to us what you think is good and appropriate. 26Joshua did as they said; he kept the Israelites from killing them 27and that day made them woodcutters and water carriers for the community and for the altar of the Lord at the divinely chosen site. (They continue in that capacity to this very day.)

2) Do not look at this with the lens of antislavery (because it’s not). Slavery in America evolved from indentured servants. That was scriptural. It aloud peasants, lower class, poor, etc. To cross the Atlantic for free with the promise to work for whom ever paid for their fare when they arrived. I know to me even today. This would be a good thing if say, I just got out of prison. Or a refugee and had nothing and looking to start over.

3) In the first example of scripture given, the situation is that a father would sell his daughter to a wealthy family for the purpose of having her in the presence of the young men of that family. If in fact the men took no interest in marrying her buy the last year (Jubilee), Yah made sure she was still protected buy law. The law of levirate marriage.

4) There are 3 steps to a marriage in scripture (particularly to a virgin). 1) The agreement (betrothal). The father and groom discuss the terms (bride price) and the consent of the bride to be. 2) The consummation. The bride and groom have intercourse, staining the sheets of the bed with the blood of her virginity. That sheet is then placed in a box, witnessed by the bride’s parents (and a few others close to the family) and put away as proof of her father’s honor in raising and protecting her. And the honor of the daughter. 3) The marriage supper or marriage feast. The marriage is complete with the final step. This above all else is “The” public declaration of the completed marriage. *(Marriage to a none virgin is being discussed in the thread “Geneses2:24”. Awaiting outcome. LOL)*

5) I will be using NET Bible





First I will establish scriptural ground for the indentured servant as stated in the previous post.

Exodus 21

The Decisions

1“These are the decisions that you will set before them:

Hebrew Servants

2“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he will go out free without paying anything. 3If he came in by himself he will go out by himself; if he had a wife when he came in, then his wife will go out with him. 4If his master gave him a wife, and she bore sons or daughters, the wife and the children will belong to her master, and he will go out by himself. 5But if the servant should declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6then his master must bring him to the judges, and he will bring him to the door or the doorposts, and his master will pierce his ear with an awl, and he shall serve him forever.

7“If a man sells his daughter as a female servant, she will not go out as the male servants do. 8If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to a foreign nation, because he has dealt deceitfully with her. 9If he designated her for his son, then he will deal with her according to the customary rights of daughters. 10If he takes another wife, he must not diminish the first one’s food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11If he does not provide her with these three things, then she will go out free, without paying money.



Deuteronomy 21

Laws Concerning Wives

10When you go out to do battle with your enemies and the Lord your God allows you to prevail and you take prisoners, 11if you should see among them an attractive woman whom you wish to take as a wife, 12you may bring her back to your house. She must shave her head, trim her nails, 13discard the clothing she was wearing when captured, and stay in your house, lamenting for her father and mother for a full month. After that you may have sexual relations with her and become her husband and she your wife. 14If you are not pleased with her, then you must let her go where she pleases. You cannot in any case sell her; you must not take advantage of her, since you have already humiliated her.

Geneses 16

1Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had not given birth to any children, but she had an Egyptian servant named Hagar. 2So Sarai said to Abram, “Since the Lord has prevented me from having children, have sexual relations with my servant. Perhaps I can have a family by her.” Abram did what Sarai told him.

Geneses 21

11Sarah’s demand displeased Abraham greatly because Ishmael was his son. 12But God said to Abraham, “Do not be upset about the boy or your slave wife. Do all that Sarah is telling you because through Isaac your descendants will be counted. 13But I will also make the son of the slave wife into a great nation, for he is your descendant too.”

14Early in the morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He put them on her shoulders, gave her the child, and sent her away. So she went wandering aimlessly through the wilderness of Beer Sheba

· Notice here Yah is the one who told Abraham to send her away.









Now I will get in to the different status.

Here we see Yah treating sex to non-husband during step one of marriage (betrothal) differently based solely on slave/ freedom status. Finance here is correctly “wife”. Just like Joseph wanted to put away secretly Marry when found pregnant. It was because they were stage one. Betrothed.



Leviticus 19

20“‘When a man has sexual intercourse with a woman, although she is a slave woman designated for another man and she has not yet been ransomed, or freedom has not been granted to her, there will be an obligation to pay compensation. They must not be put to death, because she was not free.

VS.

Deuteronomy 22 23If a virgin is engaged to a man and another man meets her in the city and has sexual relations with her, 24you must bring the two of them to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry out though in the city and the man because he violated his neighbor’s finance; in this way you will purge evil from among you.



This next is an example of what ZecAustin posted.

Geneses 25

5Everything he owned Abraham left to his son Isaac. 6But while he was still alive, Abraham gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them off to the east, away from his son Isaac.



And here we see concubines were not frowned upon. Instead we see rejoicing.

Geneses 30

9When Leah saw that she had stopped having children, she gave her servant Zilpah to Jacob as a wife. 10Soon Leah’s servant Zilpah gave Jacob a son. 11Leah said, “How fortunate!” So she named him Gad.





I would like to end this post pointing out that all Yah’s laws toward men and especially woman is to there benefit and protection. Modern culture has twisted are view and interpretation of his word with unscriptural, un-set apart ideas and ingrained pagan ideology. Got to get back to basics.



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Re: Could the Woman At The Well be in concubine relationship

It is my understanding that 7 year servitude only applied to fellow Hebrews.
That it does not apply to those taken in war or bought from traders who brought them from other lands/peoples


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