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Meat Concerning New Recruits - The Past Sins

crsivils

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Male
I would like to get some feedback on a topic I have not seen on here yet. This is somewhat multi facetted... It also seemed like it could be offensive to some, so I gave it the "Meat" prefix.

First:
Understanding that a woman who is not lawfully divorced by her husband (but they are separated) is still "off limits" to any other man - where do we place the barriers and restrictions when it comes to women who were promiscuous in their youth, but have repented and do not have any apparent "attachments" from their past? Were they technically married to the first man they slept with, and subsequently committed adultery with all the rest, and thus are still off limits?

Second:
Do these sins even count seeing as they were committed in ignorance? Is this the type of forgiveness that one receives upon repentance and coming into a knowledge of the truth? How much grace should be given for this "former life" when considering them as a mate? Does the "cleansing of all unrighteousness" whittle this issue down to a mere load of personal baggage, or is it something more serious?

Third:
Should these women who have not grown up in the truth be considered "foreign women" and thus avoided altogether? Is there any correlation to the "war bride" theme? Does God view them in the same way He views syncretism of "taking something worldly and claiming it for God", or are they still people He desires to rescue?
 
I’m at work so I’m not going to back this up right now but it seems to me that pre-salvation sins are very difficult to pin on someone, and that post-salvation sins are very difficult to get out of.
 
Understanding that a woman who is not lawfully divorced by her husband (but they are separated) is still "off limits" to any other man - where do we place the barriers and restrictions when it comes to women who were promiscuous in their youth, but have repented and do not have any apparent "attachments" from their past? Were they technically married to the first man they slept with, and subsequently committed adultery with all the rest, and thus are still off limits?
I would take the man or men's intent into consideration here also. What constitutes a "lawful divorce"? A man who has entered a written marriage agreement with a woman can be expected to give her a written divorce. However, a man who has not given her any such agreement, and never considered himself married to her, will never "divorce" her formally. So waiting for that is pointless and, if he doesn't want her, simply dooms her to singleness.

If whatever previous man there was told her "get out of my house" or otherwise rejected her clearly, and has wanted nothing to do with her since, then this is as close to a divorce as you can realistically expect a secular man to give her. If in doubt (e.g. you've only heard her side of the story and much as it sounds convincing you're really not sure about it), track him down and give him a phone call, ask him if she's his wife... His response will no doubt clarify firmly that he rejects her as such!

The whole point of divorce is to ensure that you are not stealing another man's woman. If no other man considers her their woman, you're not stealing her.
 
First:
Understanding that a woman who is not lawfully divorced by her husband (but they are separated) is still "off limits" to any other man - where do we place the barriers and restrictions when it comes to women who were promiscuous in their youth, but have repented and do not have any apparent "attachments" from their past? Were they technically married to the first man they slept with, and subsequently committed adultery with all the rest, and thus are still off limits?
Sex does not equal marriage according to scripture despite what some of the more handsome among us might assert. It is illogical to assume sex always equals marriage. Exodus 22:16 if a man entices a maid and lays with her, he must make her his wife. 17 if the father utterly refuses, the man still has to pay the virgin bride price. A prostitute does not marry every man she sleeps with. We have numerous instances in scripture where copulation occurred and there was no transfer of ownership, ergo, no marriage. A man laying with a betrothed woman didn't marry her, she already belonged to the bridegroom who paid for her DESPITE the fact she was still a maiden. Promiscuity is not marriage. God defines marriage with His example of a covenant relationship, and a purchase of the bride unto Himself.

If the woman didn't marry the man/men she slept with, none of them considered it marriage, there were no promises and vows (covenants) then she was promiscuous and sinned but did not marry. Sounds like a whore. She may be worthy of marriage still. If she was married and got a writing of divorcement then she's available for marriage.
Second:
Do these sins even count seeing as they were committed in ignorance? Is this the type of forgiveness that one receives upon repentance and coming into a knowledge of the truth? How much grace should be given for this "former life" when considering them as a mate? Does the "cleansing of all unrighteousness" whittle this issue down to a mere load of personal baggage, or is it something more serious?
It is serious, but you're asking several questions that get muddy. Sin is serious to God and counts, repentance and receiving grace that covers those sins removes them. How much grace should be given? Depends on the situation and person. There's a lot to be said for the saying "can't make a hoe a housewife." Women loose the ability to pair bond after many partners, how many? I have no idea. But the more sexual partners, the further she would be from marriage material to my mind. Can you marry a woman with 100 body count who has come to salvation and repented? Probably so, almost certainly. But that doesn't mean you should.
Third:
Should these women who have not grown up in the truth be considered "foreign women" and thus avoided altogether? Is there any correlation to the "war bride" theme? Does God view them in the same way He views syncretism of "taking something worldly and claiming it for God", or are they still people He desires to rescue?
There are no "foreign women" who are believers. There is no Jew or gentile in Christ. We are all in the same group under the covenant of Christ under His shed blood. The old covenant has been fulfilled in Jesus, the gentiles are grafted onto Jesus, not Israel. Romans 11 is abundantly clear on this. There are no foreign women who are believers. The only foreigners are pagans who reject God. So if she believes on Jesus, it doesn't matter if she grew up in truth. What matters is today.


*extra scripture on the sex equals marriage malarky*
22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

You see that? Betrothal equaled marriage. She was married despite being a virgin. The transfer of ownership and creation of a covenant between the virgin and the groom is what God's word calls "marriage".
 
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Regarding previous sin, I view the taking of a woman much like the Messiah taking me... I was not without sin. Rather He took me from my uncleanness and redeemed me to righteousness.. within reason, I can do no less.
 
Sex does not equal marriage according to scripture despite what some of the more handsome among us might assert. It is illogical to assume sex always equals marriage. Exodus 22:16 if a man entices a maid and lays with her, he must make her his wife. 17 if the father utterly refuses, the man still has to pay the virgin bride price. A prostitute does not marry every man she sleeps with. We have numerous instances in scripture where copulation occurred and there was no transfer of ownership, ergo, no marriage. A man laying with a betrothed woman didn't marry her, she already belonged to the bridegroom who paid for her DESPITE the fact she was still a maiden. Promiscuity is not marriage. God defines marriage with His example of a covenant relationship, and a purchase of the bride unto Himself.

If the woman didn't marry the man/men she slept with, none of them considered it marriage, there were no promises and vows (covenants) then she was promiscuous and sinned but did not marry. Sounds like a whore. She may be worthy of marriage still. If she was married and got a writing of divorcement then she's available for marriage.

It is serious, but you're asking several questions that get muddy. Sin is serious to God and counts, repentance and receiving grace that covers those sins removes them. How much grace should be given? Depends on the situation and person. There's a lot to be said for the saying "can't make a hoe a housewife." Women loose the ability to pair bond after many partners, how many? I have no idea. But the more sexual partners, the further she would be from marriage material to my mind. Can you marry a woman with 100 body count who has come to salvation and repented? Probably so, almost certainly. But that doesn't mean you should.

There are no "foreign women" who are believers. There is no Jew or gentile in Christ. We are all in the same group under the covenant of Christ under His shed blood. The old covenant has been fulfilled in Jesus, the gentiles are grafted onto Jesus, not Israel. Romans 11 is abundantly clear on this. There are no foreign women who are believers. The only foreigners are pagans who reject God. So if she believes on Jesus, it doesn't matter if she grew up in truth. What matters is today.


*extra scripture on the sex equals marriage malarky*
22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. 23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. 25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

You see that? Betrothal equaled marriage. She was married despite being a virgin. The transfer of ownership and creation of a covenant between the virgin and the groom is what God's word calls "marriage".
Which brings us back to why I’m so adamant on this point, how does a man marry a woman then? When do we have to worry about this issue? No one has an answer (except me) and certainly not one that can be supported by scripture.

Marrying a married woman is adultery. How do we known if a woman is married or not?
 
How do we know if a woman is married or not?

Ask her to get you a beer.

The single woman will.

The married woman will reflexively tell you to get off your butt and go get it yourself while also informing you that she's not your servant.

These are indeed subtle nuances but wise men will see them.
 
Which brings us back to why I’m so adamant on this point, how does a man marry a woman then? When do we have to worry about this issue? No one has an answer (except me) and certainly not one that can be supported by scripture.
Asked and answered. God's example is what we follow.
Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God, and thou becamest mine.
Looks to me there's two parts covering her nakedness and entering into a covenant.
Just as divorce requires two parts, sending away and writing an end to the covenant.
Perfectly juxtaposed. Come together send away - Enter a covenant, end a covenant

This is not some rote step by step process outlined. You don't have to walk past a woman, then look at her, see she's a mature woman, then make sure you have a skirt on to spread over her, have sex (even though it just says cover her nakedness), THEN swear unto her and THEN enter into a covenant and ONLY THEN she becomes yours.... I mean, shoot, what if you looked at her first before walking past her?! The sequence would be all off!! o_O o_O o_O :eek:

It's simple; See a good one, take her first and then enter a covenant if you're a stupid horny teenager that gets caught up in the moment of passion... Or make your vows to one another, pay for her and then a few months later when you have the house ready, show up, sweep her off her feet and make an honest woman out of her a couple three times. But in all these scenarios there's always at least room for the understanding that the bride and groom had a chance to talk to each other, or at very least for the groom to promise certain things.

Marrying a married woman is adultery. How do we known if a woman is married or not?
How do we know if I am a betrothed of Jesus? How can you prove it? You can't ever prove it 100% because it's a covenant and purchase by my master and it's something between me and Him. You can know me by my fruits.

I can know I am married to my wife because we entered into a covenant with one another and I covered her nakedness. Her father did not ask a bride price, he gave her freely to me, she submitted to my headship and mastery over her. And everyone can look on us and see the fruit/proof of the marriage in the way she conducts herself towards me and the rest of the world.

If a woman says she is unmarried and you marry her believing she was single when she was actually married, I can't speak to whether or not God would call you an adulterer. Seems the just thing would be to condemn her rather than the man who didn't know and had no way of knowing. If she ever was married, it would be incumbent upon the God fearing man to insist on seeing her writing of a bill of divorcement. If she cannot produce one, he would need to go to the alleged prior husband, verify and acquire a writing of a bill of divorcement. IF the man even suspected she might have entered into covenant with a previous boyfriend, I'd still do that.

But whatabouts are something you can go on with for pages. What if she married a man who was lost at sea, or MIA? Can you really know? Is she to remain unmarried and uncared for until she dies because we can't prove 100% that her husband did indeed die? Has the husband been providing for her if she hasn't seen him in 2 years? If he doesn't provide for her is he worse than an infidel? Can she not go to the elders and seek release from the law of that man because he hasn't provided for her? Lot's of whatabouts.

I would say look to the words of Jesus when He spoke to men who were being overly legalistic and avoiding the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy and faith.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Was the single mother with two children "properly divorced" according to God's word? Let's check allllll the boxes, make sure the prices have been paid, all the t's crossed and i's dotted. We can't look at the fact that the man is completely absent, abandoned them and see that there is a woman in need, fatherless children in need and do unto the least of these. We can't episkeptomai the widows and orphans unless we have notarized, stamped, taxes paid in triplicate paperwork guaranteeing everything is in order.

We can't know for sure that a woman is a virgin or that her body count was the one man who raped her at 14 years old. How can we be sure? We can't be. And it's pure pharisaical legalism to insist that we must be 1000% sure. I fear sin, make no doubt about it. But I fear being lumped in with those generations of vipers even more.

This is pure religion, to care for and meet the needs of the least of those in the Kingdom. To episkeptomai (visit) the needy in their affliction.
Exo 4:31
And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Rth 1:6
Then she arose with her daughters in law, that she might return from the country of Moab: for she had heard in the country of Moab how that the LORD had visited his people in giving them bread.
1Sa 2:21
And the LORD visited Hannah, so that she conceived, and bare three sons and two daughters. And the child Samuel grew before the LORD.
Psa 106:4
Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;
Jer 23:2
Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jer 29:10
For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited G1980 and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited G1980 us,
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit G1980 the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest G1980 him?
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit G1980 the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

There's lots of answers. You just don't like the ones that don't conform to your ideas on the matter. I'll say again like I've said it before. Sex being the only thing that creates a marriage is not borne out in scripture. I think you may have changed that goalpost, if so great! If your hang-up is that you've had sex with women without marrying them and feel guilty, repent towards God and count yourself dead to those trespasses. Don't try to justify the actions by assuming you married them all and the women are guilty for leaving you. If that's not the hang-up, ignore it, I don't know you well enough to know the details or your heart. Only you and our Lord can look on your heart.

-----------------
  1. I provided scripture that calls a virgin betrothed woman the wife of a man.
  2. I've shown numerous instances where sex occurred and there was no marriage.
  3. I've even provided scripture that outright says if a man entices a maid, sleeps with her, he must then go and make her his wife by purchasing her from the father.
Each one of these logically proves there is more to it than just copulation.

The best I have to offer is this...

We have God's example in Ezekiel 16:8, He saw fit to have written down a template laid out that perfectly matches up with everything else in scripture. Perfectly matches the first marriage creation account Gen 2. Matches the example of Jesus with us. It perfectly conforms to every scriptural account of marriage. What does not match is the idea that sex alone creates a marriage.

My bridegroom has not come to get me and take me to the place He has prepared. We are not one yet, there has not been a consummation. A price has been paid, and a covenant entered into between Him and me. I belong to Him 100%. Right now. Exactly the same way that virgin belonged to her husband by betrothal covenant even though they had not consummated the marriage yet.
 
Ask her to get you a beer.

The single woman will.

The married woman will reflexively tell you to get off your butt and go get it yourself while also informing you that she's not your servant.

These are indeed subtle nuances but wise men will see them.
What about another splishy splashy of whiskey and a cuddle?
 
I would like to get some feedback on a topic I have not seen on here yet. This is somewhat multi facetted... It also seemed like it could be offensive to some, so I gave it the "Meat" prefix.

First:
Understanding that a woman who is not lawfully divorced by her husband (but they are separated) is still "off limits" to any other man - where do we place the barriers and restrictions when it comes to women who were promiscuous in their youth, but have repented and do not have any apparent "attachments" from their past? Were they technically married to the first man they slept with, and subsequently committed adultery with all the rest, and thus are still off limits?

Second:
Do these sins even count seeing as they were committed in ignorance? Is this the type of forgiveness that one receives upon repentance and coming into a knowledge of the truth? How much grace should be given for this "former life" when considering them as a mate? Does the "cleansing of all unrighteousness" whittle this issue down to a mere load of personal baggage, or is it something more serious?

Third:
Should these women who have not grown up in the truth be considered "foreign women" and thus avoided altogether? Is there any correlation to the "war bride" theme? Does God view them in the same way He views syncretism of "taking something worldly and claiming it for God", or are they still people He desires to rescue?
I would be more concerned about what her character is like and whether she could bring STDs into the marriage. I am in the sex is not equal to marriage camp, but I am also in the camp that the woman who is divorced must seek reconciliation with her husband if she divorced him, or if he divorced her, not realizing that monogamy is not a biblical requirement, and that giving her the bill of divorce, causes her to commit adultery. When it comes to her leaving him for reason of her own protection, I recommend she get good handgun training, and also that she examine herself. It is not always the case, but button pushers tend to be abused, because a lot of husbands lack the patience that they need to control themselves in that situation. If she finds herself in a situation where she needs to use lethal force, it is unfortunate, but the last thing she would want, I imagine, is to live with the regret of knowing that she might have been the one to provoke a situation with her husband that resulted in him losing his temper. If he is the kind of man who needs no such provocation, obviously the woman needs to do what it takes to survive. I realize that is a change of subject to some degree, but I cannot find biblical grounds for any other course of action.
 
Regarding previous sin, I view the taking of a woman much like the Messiah taking me... I was not without sin. Rather He took me from my uncleanness and redeemed me to righteousness.. within reason, I can do no less.
Boom.
 
Sometimes I get the impression that older men looking for 2nd wives just may be heaping greater vetting requirements on potential wives than they should have been using back when they were much younger themselves looking for just 1 wife.

Not too many young virgins out there looking to hitch their sails to middle-aged married men.

When it comes to plural marriage, I don't see any biblical assertions that we're to solely seek among the chaste, whereas there sure are a lot of passages about how we need to make sure that widows and orphans are properly cared for.
 
Asked and answered. God's example is what we follow.

Looks to me there's two parts covering her nakedness and entering into a covenant.
Just as divorce requires two parts, sending away and writing an end to the covenant.
Perfectly juxtaposed. Come together send away - Enter a covenant, end a covenant

This is not some rote step by step process outlined. You don't have to walk past a woman, then look at her, see she's a mature woman, then make sure you have a skirt on to spread over her, have sex (even though it just says cover her nakedness), THEN swear unto her and THEN enter into a covenant and ONLY THEN she becomes yours.... I mean, shoot, what if you looked at her first before walking past her?! The sequence would be all off!! o_O o_O o_O :eek:

It's simple; See a good one, take her first and then enter a covenant if you're a stupid horny teenager that gets caught up in the moment of passion... Or make your vows to one another, pay for her and then a few months later when you have the house ready, show up, sweep her off her feet and make an honest woman out of her a couple three times. But in all these scenarios there's always at least room for the understanding that the bride and groom had a chance to talk to each other, or at very least for the groom to promise certain things.


How do we know if I am a betrothed of Jesus? How can you prove it? You can't ever prove it 100% because it's a covenant and purchase by my master and it's something between me and Him. You can know me by my fruits.

I can know I am married to my wife because we entered into a covenant with one another and I covered her nakedness. Her father did not ask a bride price, he gave her freely to me, she submitted to my headship and mastery over her. And everyone can look on us and see the fruit/proof of the marriage in the way she conducts herself towards me and the rest of the world.

If a woman says she is unmarried and you marry her believing she was single when she was actually married, I can't speak to whether or not God would call you an adulterer. Seems the just thing would be to condemn her rather than the man who didn't know and had no way of knowing. If she ever was married, it would be incumbent upon the God fearing man to insist on seeing her writing of a bill of divorcement. If she cannot produce one, he would need to go to the alleged prior husband, verify and acquire a writing of a bill of divorcement. IF the man even suspected she might have entered into covenant with a previous boyfriend, I'd still do that.

But whatabouts are something you can go on with for pages. What if she married a man who was lost at sea, or MIA? Can you really know? Is she to remain unmarried and uncared for until she dies because we can't prove 100% that her husband did indeed die? Has the husband been providing for her if she hasn't seen him in 2 years? If he doesn't provide for her is he worse than an infidel? Can she not go to the elders and seek release from the law of that man because he hasn't provided for her? Lot's of whatabouts.

I would say look to the words of Jesus when He spoke to men who were being overly legalistic and avoiding the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy and faith.



Was the single mother with two children "properly divorced" according to God's word? Let's check allllll the boxes, make sure the prices have been paid, all the t's crossed and i's dotted. We can't look at the fact that the man is completely absent, abandoned them and see that there is a woman in need, fatherless children in need and do unto the least of these. We can't episkeptomai the widows and orphans unless we have notarized, stamped, taxes paid in triplicate paperwork guaranteeing everything is in order.

We can't know for sure that a woman is a virgin or that her body count was the one man who raped her at 14 years old. How can we be sure? We can't be. And it's pure pharisaical legalism to insist that we must be 1000% sure. I fear sin, make no doubt about it. But I fear being lumped in with those generations of vipers even more.

This is pure religion, to care for and meet the needs of the least of those in the Kingdom. To episkeptomai (visit) the needy in their affliction.



There's lots of answers. You just don't like the ones that don't conform to your ideas on the matter. I'll say again like I've said it before. Sex being the only thing that creates a marriage is not borne out in scripture. I think you may have changed that goalpost, if so great! If your hang-up is that you've had sex with women without marrying them and feel guilty, repent towards God and count yourself dead to those trespasses. Don't try to justify the actions by assuming you married them all and the women are guilty for leaving you. If that's not the hang-up, ignore it, I don't know you well enough to know the details or your heart. Only you and our Lord can look on your heart.

-----------------
  1. I provided scripture that calls a virgin betrothed woman the wife of a man.
  2. I've shown numerous instances where sex occurred and there was no marriage.
  3. I've even provided scripture that outright says if a man entices a maid, sleeps with her, he must then go and make her his wife by purchasing her from the father.
Each one of these logically proves there is more to it than just copulation.

The best I have to offer is this...

We have God's example in Ezekiel 16:8, He saw fit to have written down a template laid out that perfectly matches up with everything else in scripture. Perfectly matches the first marriage creation account Gen 2. Matches the example of Jesus with us. It perfectly conforms to every scriptural account of marriage. What does not match is the idea that sex alone creates a marriage.

My bridegroom has not come to get me and take me to the place He has prepared. We are not one yet, there has not been a consummation. A price has been paid, and a covenant entered into between Him and me. I belong to Him 100%. Right now. Exactly the same way that virgin belonged to her husband by betrothal covenant even though they had not consummated the marriage yet.
Except God covered her nakedness before the covenant. It’s almost as if you’re accusing Him of whatever the sin of sec before marriage is. By the by, what is that sin and where is it in scripture?
 
Except God covered her nakedness before the covenant. It’s almost as if you’re accusing Him of whatever the sin of sec before marriage is. By the by, what is that sin and where is it in scripture?
Where did @NickF mention a sin of sex before marriage? I think you're setting up a strawman there - but maybe I missed it.
 
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