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Comparison of Romany Law with Israelite Law and Indo-Aryan Traditions

Nikud

Nikud

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http://www.imninalu.net/Zakono.htm

First I want to say i dont use the term Gypsy. It's a derogatory term with alot of condemnations. Rroma, Roma, Rhom, Rrhom, Rom, Romani, or Romany are all names for the same Ethnic Group.

After discussing some of the traditions and customs of the Romani, @IshChayil asked me if I thought the Romani were one of the lost tribes. It's not the first time it's been brought up to be. I was always told that the Romani are Indo-Aryan. There are some Ethnic Historians that beleive otherwise. Let me stop there. I am Romani...well pushratt (derogatory term) or mixed blood. Alot of Romani hide our heritage because of fear of persecution, of losing the trust of people we respect. How many of you have said I got gypped before? Meaning cheated or swindled. Where do you think that came from? Just think of the the way we're protrayed in movies, literature, or on TV (especially by some of our own idiot cousins on stupid reality shows) 90 percent of whats out there on the internet or written in books that is "known" about the Romani is B.S.. I was just wanting to show a comparison of the laws and traditions that the Romani use to hold true and I started to rant. Well I'm gonna post this any way.
 
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Very interesting article, thankyou. It makes a lot of sense.
I know of no Romani in NZ, but we lived in Ireland for a while and they were common there, though sadly we had nothing to do with them. I did hear at one point that if it weren't for the Romani the Catholic church pews would be nearly empty, they were holding fast to Christianity while most of the country was abandoning it.
 
FollowingHim said:
Romani the Catholic church pews would be nearly empty, they were holding fast to Christianity while most of the country was abandoning it.
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I did not know that. I knew there were Romanichal and Kalo in Ireland but not that they were Catholics or that they were filling the pews. That's interesting. I guess when a need is there fill it. There's an old Romani saying:

Kek man camov te jib bolli-mengreskoenaes,(1)
Man camov te jib weshenjugalogonaes. (2)

I do not wish to live like a baptized person.(1)
I wish to live like a dog of the wood.(2)

It's a cant speak so you can't take it literal.
It means:

I will not change our ways for the ways of the Papist.(1)
I will still wander in the wilderness.(2)

I think that's good that when people were abandoning Christianity they were clinging to it no matter what form.

Thank you, for that. BTW, There are Romanichal and Romungro in New Zealand.
 
FollowingHim said:
Very interesting article, thankyou. It makes a lot of sense.
I know of no Romani in NZ, but we lived in Ireland for a while and they were common there, though sadly we had nothing to do with them. I did hear at one point that if it weren't for the Romani the Catholic church pews would be nearly empty, they were holding fast to Christianity while most of the country was abandoning it.
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Don't some refer to them as the Irish Wanderers?
 
Kevin said:
http://www.imninalu.net/Zakono.htm

First I want to say i dont use the term Gypsy. It's a derogatory term with alot of condemnations. Rroma, Roma, Rhom, Rrhom, Rom, Romani, or Romany are all names for the same Ethnic Group.

After discussing some of the traditions and customs of the Romani, @IshChayil asked me if I thought the Romani were one of the lost tribes. It's not the first time it's been brought up to be. I was always told that the Romani are Indo-Aryan. There are some Ethnic Historians that beleive otherwise. Let me stop there. I am Romani...well pushratt (derogatory term) or mixed blood. Alot of Romani hide our heritage because of fear of persecution, of losing the trust of people we respect. How many of you have said I got gypped before? Meaning cheated or swindled. Where do you think that came from? Just think of the the way we're protrayed in movies, literature, or on TV (especially by some of our own idiot cousins on stupid reality shows) 90 percent of whats out there on the internet or written in books that is "known" about the Romani is B.S.. I was just wanting to show a comparison of the laws and traditions that the Romani use to hold true and I started to rant. Well I'm gonna post this any way.
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Perhaps not a lost tribe, but maybe pre-Abrahamic, or post Noahic? Maybe this culture was contemporary with Job? Not all history is written, so they may have kept the knowledge of the Almighty in oral traditions?
 
Mojo said:
Don't some refer to them as the Irish Wanderers?
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Irish Travelers are a seperate ethic group who have adopted some of the Romani traditions but have there own traditions and culture aswell. As far as I know every traveler I've met is a Catholic so it might have been them because their called Gypsies as well.

Mojo said:
Not all history is written, so they may have kept the knowledge of the Almighty in oral traditions?
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Contemporary of Job. I never thought of that. Also I was told about a Wise man who got lost and stumbled upon a Romani kumpania (band of extended family and friends). He said that he was spreading the word that the Messiah had come to bring a new kingdom to this world. The kumpania packed up and started spreading the Word. They never stoped. It was never explained to me how they already knew the Word.
 
And who were those wise men from the East who came to see the Messiah? Most assume Babylonian /Persian because of the Jewish influence from the captivity. Maybe further East into India....China?
 
Most of the origin stories of Homeland I read about say India/Pakistan region. I know the Romani where in the region for a long while. None of us know for sure alot was lost more so in the 40s.
 
My mistake then. I was referring to the travellers. Thought they were the same. This is complex... :)

Given the cultural similarities though, here's an interesting story. Sarah was in hospital briefly over there, and a lady in her ward was a traveller who looked only around 15 years old, but was married (in reality and in their customs, but not legally), pregnant, and very happy with the whole situation. Her husband had been required to demonstrate he could support her before he was allowed to marry her. The way that they were just living their lives outside the "system", and protecting women as they did so, was interesting and quite relevant to ourselves, given they're a reasonably large group of people and are managing to live that way in a Western country.
 
FollowingHim said:
traveller who looked only around 15 years old, but was married (in reality and in their customs, but not legally), pregnant, and very happy with the whole situation. Her husband had been required to demonstrate he could support her before he was allowed to marry her
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Both Romani and travelers marry young. Romani girls 14-15 and guys 16-17, Travlers about the same. If a woman is unmarried by the age of 18 she is considered a spinster. That usally happens because of rumors of her being a dirty girl. Guys if there not married with children by 21-22 they can pretty much forget about ever becoming an Elder and a seat on the Kris. A lot of Romani don't got to school past the age of 13 if they go at all. Guys are expect to apprentice with a Family member to learn a trade. Girls learn how to be a good Romani wife (Proverbs 31). The key is to not do faki and avoid the Muskers. That means Romani Laws ,even the ones in the article that are erroneously stated as no longer practiced, are strictly enforced. Travelers laws aren't much different but more lenient in punishment.
 
Kevin said:
http://www.imninalu.net/Zakono.htm

First I want to say i dont use the term Gypsy. It's a derogatory term with alot of condemnations. Rroma, Roma, Rhom, Rrhom, Rom, Romani, or Romany are all names for the same Ethnic Group.

After discussing some of the traditions and customs of the Romani, @IshChayil asked me if I thought the Romani were one of the lost tribes. It's not the first time it's been brought up to be. I was always told that the Romani are Indo-Aryan. There are some Ethnic Historians that beleive otherwise. Let me stop there. I am Romani...well pushratt (derogatory term) or mixed blood. Alot of Romani hide our heritage because of fear of persecution, of losing the trust of people we respect. How many of you have said I got gypped before? Meaning cheated or swindled. Where do you think that came from? Just think of the the way we're protrayed in movies, literature, or on TV (especially by some of our own idiot cousins on stupid reality shows) 90 percent of whats out there on the internet or written in books that is "known" about the Romani is B.S.. I was just wanting to show a comparison of the laws and traditions that the Romani use to hold true and I started to rant. Well I'm gonna post this any way.
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I'm usually one to roll my eyes at various lost tribe suggestions (British, etc.) but I was thinking maybe the Romani might be. The thing that got me thinking that were some of the customs you described to me and how you shared some of the language things are related to sanskrit. That got me thinking that they may have hailed at least from one of the regions of ancient exile.
I can't remember a time where I ever suggested the idea that a certain people group may be "lost tribe" as I believe most of the "lost tribes" were assimilated into alien cultures except for the bnei Menasheh and now I think maybe this group - as a hypothesis.
BTW the link you provided "Zakono" means "LAW" in old Slavonic ...
 
IshChayil said:
That got me thinking that they may have hailed at least from one of the regions of ancient exile
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It's very possible the problem is that the Romani have been everywhere.
 
Kevin said:
I need some one who understands Genetics.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gDykQFghSMAM&usg=AOvVaw1nZDUxIVlDvzOiHVMAAc6W
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I've only read the first couple pages so far as screaming baby now on my neck, but I thought this is interesting:
") Within the H-M82 haplogroup, an identical 8-microsatellite Y chromo some haplotype is shared by nearly 30% of Gypsy men, an astonishing degree of preservation of a highly differentiated lineage, previously described only in Jewish priests.(30)"
If Gypsies are a lost tribe, or mix of lost tribe and proto-Indians, we would expect to find Cohein DNA (descendants of Aaron) as all Jewish groups except for the Georgian Jews (believed to be from Khazar conversions) had Priests and Levites with them as those groups had no set land and had a function among all the tribes.... aaah baby crawling to danger zone gotta go
 
I'm not a genetics expert, but what is it that you want to know?

It's a standard format study. Begin with the opening description, then go to the conclusion. That will tell you the basic information. Are you curious about the data?
 
Very curious about the data. It makes my head hurt but can you explain figure 3 in Concerns to the Vlax Roma. I'm not getting it.
 
Kevin said:
Very curious about the data. It makes my head hurt but can you explain figure 3 in Concerns to the Vlax Roma. I'm not getting it.
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Ok, like I said, not an expert in any sense of the word.

What I can gather is that the Y chromosome (male) similarities in the nomadic group is pretty high (indicating low admixture). The mitochondrial DNA (linked to the mother) is not as similar, indicating intermarriage with local female populations along the way.

The sedentary (non nomadic group) was less consistent genetically with Y chromosomes or mitochondrial DNA.

I will let the experts correct me, and provide the further significance.
 
IshChayil said:
I've only read the first couple pages so far as screaming baby now on my neck, but I thought this is interesting:
") Within the H-M82 haplogroup, an identical 8-microsatellite Y chromo some haplotype is shared by nearly 30% of Gypsy men, an astonishing degree of preservation of a highly differentiated lineage, previously described only in Jewish priests.(30)"
If Gypsies are a lost tribe, or mix of lost tribe and proto-Indians, we would expect to find Cohein DNA (descendants of Aaron) as all Jewish groups except for the Georgian Jews (believed to be from Khazar conversions) had Priests and Levites with them as those groups had no set land and had a function among all the tribes.... aaah baby crawling to danger zone gotta go
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Ok Update to this.
Other interesting quotes from the article:

In some cases, mixed marriages can result in the formation of a new Gypsy group, for example the Zhutane Roma in Bulgaria (literally Jewish Roma) born in the common deportation camps during World War II.(21)

On a condensed time scale, the history of the Gypsies (and, to a large extent, the social phenomena behind it) reproduces the more widely known history of the Jews, with the exodus, diaspora and fragmentation into small geographically dispersed communities.

So seems the article was interested in using the gypsies to increase our understanding of "founder" groups; groups which kept isolated to some degree from intermarriage with other communities and how this knowledge will leverage medical screening and thus prevention of various diseases. Herein arises some similarities to Azhkenazi Jews (i.e. "German Jews").
Both groups have certain genetically screenable diseases due to similar marriage practices. The "Zhutane Roma" seem to have been a mix between Roma and European Jews (so if the Roma are a lost tribe this would now be tribe x mixed with Judah and Levi and whatever remained of Benjamin).
I think the most intriguing part of the article is what I commented about early on. The presence of the same haplotype used in "testing" for ancestry as male descendants of Aaron.
So there are now genetic tests for: Jewish lineage (again this is for "normal" Jews i.e. 8% Levi, most of the rest is Judah mix with some small, small, small Benjamin thrown in the mix and perhaps some miniscule Simeon), Levite heritage tests, and Cohein (descendant from Aaron on the male side) tests. These various branches if "gypsy" groups often would not allow intermarriage with other gypsy groups yet they still have a remarkably high commonality in ancestry in the male side. This is also what happens with Cohanim (Jewish priests from Aaron). The author found the gypsy groups remarkable in that they would often not marry gypsies from another city or group but would often allow marriage with foreign women.
Hope that helps
 
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