Alignment

[andrew]

I was talking with the ladies this morning over coffee (our regular morning meeting before breakfast) about the chronic tension that exists in so many marriages between a husband who believes there is no limit to a wife's duty to submit or obey and a wife who believes that there are boundaries somewhere beyond which a husband's authority becomes abusive and illegitimate. (Obviously if both parties believe the same thing about the limits (or lack thereof) of a husband's authority, this is not a problem. There may be other problems and tensions (such as figuring out exactly where those boundaries are), but not this particular kind of chronic tension.)

Came up with a metaphor of first impression for me: a car with its steering out of alignment. Most of us know what it feels like to have a car pulling consistently to the side, having to pull the other way on the steering wheel just to have the car move straight down the road. And some of us have learned the hard way what happens when you believe that applying equal-and-opposite counter-pressure actually solves the problem: your tires wear down to the steel belts and then just blow out. So whether you got taught, figured it out on your own before it was too late, or learned the hard way, just about all of us know that when you realize that your car is constantly pulling to one side, you need to have your steering aligned, and the sooner the better. Not to address the problem is to compound it. You can solve your immediate problem of arriving at your destination without ending up in a ditch or having a head-on collision simply by pulling on the steering wheel, but the long-term problem is the extra expense of having to replace wives, uh, I mean tires, when they wear out before their time, plus the possible expense of the wreck you're going to have when a tire blows.

And guys, if you don't like the way your car steers, it's time to do something, take action, to solve the problem. Yelling at the car to straighten up and drive right won't solve anything.

I like the car image because it paints a vivid picture of the long term wear and tear on the wives, I mean tires, when the alignment is screwed up. If you prefer a parable with a living creature instead of an inanimate machine, just think horse and rider. If the horse is not responsive to your direction, you need to train it better. Or maybe you should have bought a better horse in the first place. Or maybe you just don't understand horses at all. Or maybe you're trying to get the horse to do something unreasonable, that even a horse can figure out is a bad idea, even if the rider is clueless. In any event, beating the horse (physically or emotionally) is not going to solve the problem, whereas working with the horse to train or re-train it just might.

Absolute authority entails absolute responsibility.

 

[mystic]

< Spiderman nods solemnly and pats his horse. >

 

[andrew]

Once you get on a roll....

Started thinking about instruments that are set up badly and don't play well or won't stay in tune....

I got there from considering the unifying theme here: To the extent you expect a car, or a horse, or a guitar, or a woman, or whatever, to be perfectly responsive to your will, it is your job make sure you are acquiring the right <whatever> and then to maintain its fitness as you go. If you don't take care of it properly, you can't expect it to maintain its value and utility....

 

[andrew]

Okay, now I've gone completely over the top and have gone to meddlin. I keep having these afterthoughts following my own train of thought....

If you can't afford a Ferrari, or a trained Arabian, or a Martin, etc, then you shouldn't get bent out of shape if the car you can afford doesn't drive like a Ferrari, etc, etc. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the car you can afford. But you have to remember you're in this together and maintain reasonable expectations for whatever/whomever you end up with.

We have to take some responsibility for the choice we made in the first place.

 

[Nikud]

We have to take some responsibility for the choice we made in the first place.

“If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

 

[andrew]

That Teddy knew a thing or two....

 

[Shibboleth]

Or maybe you're trying to get the horse to do something unreasonable, that even a horse can figure out is a bad idea, even if the rider is clueless.

I probably shouldn't go here, but I can't help it, so here goes: Maybe the rider ignores what God already told him, so God sends a sword-weilding angel to block the path in front of the donkey, and she talks back to the rider when the rider beats her.

 

[andrew]

Legit.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Ummm . . . Word

 

[IshChayil]

I probably shouldn't go here, but I can't help it, so here goes: Maybe the rider ignores what God already told him, so God sends a sword-weilding angel to block the path in front of the donkey, and she talks back to the rider when the rider beats her.

You may not wanna know this guys... but according to Jewish tradition, his donkey kind of was like his wife... comprende?

 

[MeganC]

I was talking with the ladies this morning over coffee (our regular morning meeting before breakfast) about the chronic tension that exists in so many marriages between a husband who believes there is no limit to a wife's duty to submit or obey and a wife who believes that there are boundaries somewhere beyond which a husband's authority becomes abusive and illegitimate.

....

Absolute authority entails absolute responsibility.

Before we said our vows my husband told me that my time to say no to him was before we got married and not after. Growing up in the modern world I really did not understand what this meant until our wedding night and thereafter when he made it clear to me that my first job as his new wife was to have a baby. It took me a couple years to adjust to this and I did and now I understand that making him happy and submitting to him comes back to me sevenfold in the unlimited things he's willing to do for our family. When one of my sw had a baby born with cataracts I was so blown away when he moved heaven and earth to find the right eye surgeon to fix the baby's eyes. There was no limit to what he was willing to do for us, for me, for my children, and after that I understood that I needed to place no limits on what I was willing to do for him as his wife.

Can't even tell you how I wonder sometimes at the women who bitch about their husbands and make it a point of pride about how they refuse him and then they complain about how he doesn't make them happy.

They look all around for answers when the wisdom is right there in the Bible waiting for them.

For anyone questioning that wisdom then I challenge you to try it for a month and see if you aren't happier at the end of the month.

Test God in this and you will see just like I did.

- Megan

 

[andrew]

Megan, that's a great word to the women who are dealing with submission issues (which basically means trust issues). And it sounds like you and your husband have found your groove of both giving '100% and then some' to make the relationship work and the family successful.

In the context of this thread, though, I'll stick with what I said above. If there is chronic tension in the relationship, it is the job of the person claiming authority in the relationship to take responsibility for the relationship.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Before we said our vows my husband told me that my time to say no to him was before we got married and not after. Growing up in the modern world I really did not understand what this meant until our wedding night and thereafter when he made it clear to me that my first job as his new wife was to have a baby. It took me a couple years to adjust to this and I did and now I understand that making him happy and submitting to him comes back to me sevenfold in the unlimited things he's willing to do for our family. When one of my sw had a baby born with cataracts I was so blown away when he moved heaven and earth to find the right eye surgeon to fix the baby's eyes. There was no limit to what he was willing to do for us, for me, for my children, and after that I understood that I needed to place no limits on what I was willing to do for him as his wife.

Can't even tell you how I wonder sometimes at the women who bitch about their husbands and make it a point of pride about how they refuse him and then they complain about how he doesn't make them happy.

They look all around for answers when the wisdom is right there in the Bible waiting for them.

For anyone questioning that wisdom then I challenge you to try it for a month and see if you aren't happier at the end of the month.

Test God in this and you will see just like I did.

- Megan

I can't like this enough Megan, thank you!

 

[rustywest4]

Before we said our vows my husband told me that my time to say no to him was before we got married and not after. Growing up in the modern world I really did not understand what this meant until our wedding night and thereafter when he made it clear to me that my first job as his new wife was to have a baby. It took me a couple years to adjust to this and I did and now I understand that making him happy and submitting to him comes back to me sevenfold in the unlimited things he's willing to do for our family. When one of my sw had a baby born with cataracts I was so blown away when he moved heaven and earth to find the right eye surgeon to fix the baby's eyes. There was no limit to what he was willing to do for us, for me, for my children, and after that I understood that I needed to place no limits on what I was willing to do for him as his wife.

Can't even tell you how I wonder sometimes at the women who bitch about their husbands and make it a point of pride about how they refuse him and then they complain about how he doesn't make them happy.

They look all around for answers when the wisdom is right there in the Bible waiting for them.

For anyone questioning that wisdom then I challenge you to try it for a month and see if you aren't happier at the end of the month.

Test God in this and you will see just like I did.

- Megan

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap!!! Now that's some good stuff right there homegirl!

 

[andrew]

You youngsters just melt when a woman tells you what you want to hear....

Meanwhile, I don't want this thread hijacked, so another post or comment about how great it is when women just do what they're told and I'll split Megan's post and any others commenting on it into a new thread so we can keep the two different topics separate.

@MeganC, your first post is fine because woman-to-woman that's a good word, I just don't want it to distract the guys, who I'd like to see interacting more with the idea of male responsibility instead of dodging it and rah-rah-ing the female submission stuff. And maybe I should have just posted this in the men only section, but I welcome any input from the ladies if we can stay on the topic of male responsibility for the relationship.

Megan, you post also touches on the chicken-and-egg nature of every relationship, and what we each do for each other. As a woman, it makes sense and is fitting that you would be more focused on the female side of the dance. But what you said from your perspective I would turn around and offer to the guys, man-to-man:

Now I understand that making {her} happy and {loving her} comes back to me sevenfold in the unlimited things {she}'s willing to do for {me and} our family.

 

[Nikud]

 

[Nikud]

I keep going back to the first time in scripture that a man failed in his duty to instruct his wife properly and she was the one blamed.

It was Adam that was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He then told Eve not to touch the tree. His lack of instruction made it possible for her to be deceived. He then stood there while she took the fruit, doing nothing to stop her, and ate with her.

Yet if you ask any child or even most Adults and they will tell you we have sin because of Eve. It's the lack of accountability of most men that lead to this kind of thinking.

Then look at Job.

Job 1:5

And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and consecrate them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually

Accepting responsibility is something that took me a long time to grasp. For years I was accepting responsibility for my action and their results....... but not for my inaction and there consequences or the actions of my family who it is my responsibility to guide.

I usally get alot of push back and anger at this point (This is a conversation I have alot), but it usually ends up with the Holy Spirit Gibbs slapping them on the back of the head like he does to me.

 

[andrew]

For years I was accepting responsibility for my action and their results....... but not for my inaction and there consequences or the actions of my family who it is my responsibility to guide.

Jackpot.

 

[andrew]

There's a related topic I keep forgetting to mention when I'm on the forum: our approach to the problem of feminism in our culture. This may need its own thread, but I thought I'd mention it here.

We can rail all we want about what the women need to change, but they are just responding to cultural incentives that we men share responsibility for (we could start with the men that thought it would be a good idea to allow women to vote, but that's definitely another thread ).

We can take back the masculine role in our culture if we are willing to take responsibility for the mess we're in. But we'll never talk the women into giving it back, and to the extent we keep telling them it's up to them to change, we just sound whiny, and we're essentially conceding the basic point that they're in charge.

 

[Jim an Apostle]

It was Adam that was told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He then told Eve not to touch the tree. His lack of instruction made it possible for her to be deceived.

I think the 'lack' was that the instruction Adam gave added to the words of God, possibly without without explaining the difference between his words and God's words. In a Kingdom sense, the difference should not have mattered, except to keep the clarity in the words of God. We, sometimes, add to God's instruction and pass it off as His word when it was our own addition. For example: the Bible says do not get drunk! Many teach therefore, "Thou shall not drink" thinking to protect one from sin, not distinguishing between the command of God, and the advice of the man. It would be more proper to say, "God said . . . and I advise"; or in the case of having the proper authority, "I command...!" which would not be a wrong thing to do... as long as the distinction is made so that the hearer is not led into a question as to the source of the command or admonition. The "do not touch" seems to me to be Adam's addition. It might have helped if he had been more clear by saying "God said..." and "I say...", so Satan could not question the source. Then, if the instruction had been followed with the understanding that as her head, he (Adam) had the authority to also command, it could have made it harder for Satan to use the 'doubt as to the source' as to whether obedience was required. Eve could have then properly responded by saying, "God said do not eat", and my husband said that I cannot even touch. The Bible says her husband was there with her. Adam should have intervened and not allowed Eve to be the test agent. Adam was ultimately responsible. The interesting concept is that you can delegate authority, but you cannot delegate responsibility; because when you delegate the authority, you are responsible for misuse for the authority that you delegated in the first place.