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A Potential Legal Route to Overturn Anti-Polygyny Laws

Dr. K.R. Allen

Member
Real Person
Over the last few days I pulled out several legal texts to read again over various ideas and I think there might be a way to legally argue and overturn (not establish) the laws that forbid polygyny. If so this would give all people the right to assemble as they see fit and for the assembly itself or the people in the assembly the right to call it whatever they so desire.

Of course if this route were to be followed it would give any person the right to form their own family however they agree to do it so long as it was done peacefully. But this would then be an inclusive approach not an exclusive approach, which seems to fit better with the 1st Amendment purpose. I'm not sure if anyone has tried this approach or not (if so I've not seen or heard of it).

In many cases people have focused on only one part of the 1st Amendment clause. Normally the focus has been: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Then they argue that polygyny is a religious issue.

But the "marriage idea" has been ruled to be more of a civil (whole societal) issue than a religious one since all people in general marry regardless of their religous status. Thus these arguments, though with some real weight, don't seem to have the amount of weight as we would like for them to have. Furthermore, those who go this route often go too far and argue that we need to make laws giving the permission to marry when marriage is not a permission issue but an innate right that people are born with (even though they have to physically mature to be able to mate).

But there are two other clauses that are in the 1st Amendment. This Amendment also says: "the right of the people peaceably to assemble."

In reading my legal texts I have discovered that this phrase is not directly the same as the next phrase which says: "and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." In my mind I've always thought the two phrases were talking about the same thing and thus I never saw the "assembly clause" as something distinct from the "petition clause." However, I think I misread that and was wrong about it only applying to the act of petitioning the government. It looks like from my additional reading from previous case law and court rulings that phrase of "peacable assembly" is treated as a distinct phrase not directly connected to the "petition clause," though at times they can work concurrently. In other words, people can assemble together for the purpose of petitioning the government, but the assembling together can be for other purposes not related to petitioning the government. And thus the only qualifiers to that assembling together is that it must be "of persons" and done "peacefully." That would apparently exclude beastiality unions (a person and animal) and yet still include and maintain all the anti-criminal sexual conduct laws (laws against rape, etc as those acts are not peaceful assemblies).

It looks like to me people could argue before the courts that people have the natural right (natural law theory) to assemble themselves (to join) together peaceably. And the idea behind assemble has a broad range of applications. The idea of marry would fit within the idea of to assemble or to join for a common purpose. For example, look at the definitions for "assemble":
1. to come together,
2. to fit,
3. to join together

Now look at some of the definitions of to "marry."
1. to join,
2. to unite closely,
3. the act that unites two parties

A union of man and woman or any set of humans done peacefully for a purpose such as to be a family or to raise children or to simply enjoy each other's companionship could all fall within the semantical domain of the phrase itself. Surely, one might be able to argue, if the people have the right to join together in political parties, in religious organisms, in business endeavors, in actions to petition against the government, in personal common pursuits such as hobbies, vacations, then why not in the common purpose of forming a family or a personal bond for the common purpose(s) that come along with a family assembly? But if the law to assemble would be applied to all places at all times in the states then there would be the right to assemble, sexually, politically, etc. so long as they as adults agreed upon the purpose. Thus the argument would be the laws need to be overturned. This argument could be articulated in such a way that it steers a neutral course not drawing religion into the mix of the equation or argumentation and thus seemingly fit within the spirit of the 1st Amendment as a whole. One could easily argue it seems that several people wanted to form a family but because of some laws against no sexual unions outside of marriage they could not peacefully assemble. Several routes could be taken it seems to show that there exist on the books laws that prohibit people from peaceably assembling and thus those laws conflict with the constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land.

If that could be established then all laws that forbid people from uniting together (assembling) for the purpose of a sexual union or as a family union, if done peacefully, would or could be struck from all of the law books across the land. A seed was laid in the Lawrence vs.Texas case law but this route might take it even further.

As noted above, it would not "establish law" but it would dethrone and cut out all anti-laws that forbid sexual unions between consenting adults who choose to peacefully assemble, which would be a pluralistic law (fitting the spirit and purpose of the 1st Amendment) that then has room within it for polygyny. The religious argument could then maybe even be used as a secondary support, or not used at all depending on the nature of the legal brief and the nature of the court or justices it might be going before.

I've not included the numerous cases that have touched on this so as not to bore everyone here. But there is case law showing the difference in these two phrases and thus room for such idea to be submitted and defended within the courts and Appeals Courts.

Dr. Allen

***WARNING*** Just as a side note, but nonetheless an important one. I urge all who read this, especially those who are eager to take something before the courts, to not run wild and rush to a court or to find any lawyer to file a federal court brief. First, this is only an idea. But if this idea is a good one then this type of effort ought to be done carefully, prayerfully, on the right conditions and right terms with a great legal scholar or even with a team of legal scholars (kinda like a plurality of elders working together, there is wisdom in the multitude). Furthermore, someone or ones entering some effort like this should only do so after it is clear the Lord is calling them to do this (probably verified by prayer with others who can see it as well) and even more so only after they have clean hearts, humble hearts, and a spirit of love and respect for the government. In other words, those that do not respect, fear, and honor government authorities then this would not be the right place to be lest the wrong spirit and attitude undermine the effort itself. Alright, enough said, just a warning, ya know kinda like the "do not try this at home" kinda of warnings.
 
Dr Allen I appreciate all the time you invest in researching and it is a privilege to serve along side you.
 
Likewise, it is a blessing to serve with you and to sit and learn from you as well. I appreciate your love for Scripture and for the people here.
 
You have exactly one year and one day to help us organize, prepare arguments, and determine our strategy. August 19th, 2011 will be the day we file. After all...August 19th is the unofficial "Polygamist Day" why shouldn't we also let it be our Independence Day?

The ACLU has already shown its willingness to assist with legal representation for this type of union in Utah and would likely join with us.

http://www.acluutah.org/bigamystatute.htm

I remember reading a post or information somewhere by Hugh Mcbryde where he suggested that if a man was married and then went and applied for a license for another woman he wanted to marry and was turned down because he was already married, that the State itself would have to provide legal representation to the individual being denied what he considered to be his rights. Not sure if that is a good idea or not...Anyway...that's part of your job now...to help us determine the strategy we will use... : ) We need to argue this from as many legal positions as possible simultaneously. Legal rights for our wives, freedom from religious persecution (faulty Catholic doctrine codified into law), separation of Church and State, the right to peaceably assemble, The Territory of Utah being forced to put bigamy and anti-polygamy language in its Constitution not required of any other Territories to become a State, other states required to have anti-polygamy and bigamy statements in their Constitutions, etc... I guess we don't want to muddy it up too much, but there is just so much material to work with here...

I know that NCbeleivercouple has been on a rampage (well so have I) to get something done. I am certain that we are not the only two out there. He stated that he felt that we should file suit in as many states simultaneously as possible...a "full frontal assault" kind of strategy. I tend to think that Utah would be the best battle ground as there is already a considerable grassroots support base to work with. If the position of the Mormon Church is considered to be too formidable then perhaps New Hampshire would be a better choice. As we ramp this up I think it is very likely that a lot of people will "come out of the woodwork" and "jump on the bandwagon" as NCbeleivercouple likes to put it. (Gotta love anybody that can mix cliches like that).

I also think the timing is very good in that those opposed to us also oppose other organizations that disagree with the one man one woman heresy and are already fighting numerous battles that will likely end up at the SCOTUS, and their resources are not unlimited. In fact I think a number of their supporters are becoming weary of the battle as they see numerous decisions go against them and wonder if their money isn't better spent elsewhere. In fact many religious organizations are suffering considerably from the 2008 Depression and do not have the resources to put up much more of a fight. Maybe, just maybe they will suddenly find this passage and become introspective:

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Let's get something started! Woo Hoo!!!!
Time to get my caboose to work! (oops...hope I didn't offend anyone... ; ) )
OK I'm gonna be fired up ALL day now... : D
 
Well if you don't set goals you can't meet them much less adjust them if necessary...we just need to get started down a path of some sort...I think this is a very good direction to take...

Example:
A number of States have announced publicly that they will not prosecute polygamy as long as there are no other crimes being committed.

Legal argument: I can't even take my wives and kids to the park to have a picnic without breaking the law by being seen with my wives. I can not legally assemble together with my wives and children at a public park without the fear of something possibly happening; a law of some sort being inadvertently broken, and what started as an innocent trip to the park with my family gets me arrested for polygamy....etc...you get the drift...
 
Dr. K.R. Allen,

Thanks for your research and well thought out argument. It's a new twist and a good point. I've tried to look into cases involving ANY type of bans on someone marrying another, and of course have paid special attention to when and why some of those bans were overturned. Some of the same arguments can be applied to polygamy but your point goes an extra step further and can be added on to other arguments which is good!
 
Scarecrow said:
You have exactly one year and one day to help us organize, prepare arguments, and determine our strategy. August 19th, 2011 will be the day we file. After all...August 19th is the unofficial "Polygamist Day" why shouldn't we also let it be our Independence Day?

One good thing about goal setting that I've learned is to set a reasonable date so I applaud you for at least doing that. I know we can get some people to gather for this if they only was an 'organized' effort that they knew they could easily join.
 
Polypride,

Thanks for your kind words there.

As for an organized effort, well maybe this is something we can discuss collectively at some point. I think it would be wise to develop a team of legal scholars who could begin to work on this so that others could join in the effort.

There are some faith based legal organizations that might consider this. However, then again they may not. It may simply be a straight out non-religious legal team that would have to do prepare for this in a legal brief to file in some court in a particular disitrict.

I know Scarecrow mentioned the ACLU. But then I'm very concerned about working with them due to their many other positions that run contrary to many of the freedoms and liberties that generally Christians would endorse and support. So I'm not sure if that would be a good idea or not. But working with an unsaved lawyer or team of lawyers I suppose can be the same thing because some of them represent people with very sinful and warped ideas as well. So it may simply be a bias and emotional bent I have that is not healthy.

Nonetheless, I think a first step might be this: finding a brilliant jurist or team of jurists who would like to take the case. Then examining any costs and then fundaraising for that. We could begin to recruit others to join in the effort at that point for the effort to overturn all anti-peacable assembly laws.

Suggestions on what legal scholar or team of scholars might need to be contacted or sought after?

Allen
 
In my haste to type out my thoughts I neglected to also thank you, Dr. K.R. Allen, for your continued efforts and insight into the issues facing us.

I too disagree with some of the things that the ACLU supports/stands for, but then again I have yet to meet anyone that I completely agree with on everything. If they can help us to achieve a mutual goal we would be foolish to not take advantage of their services as an available resource. We are free to be their adversary on other issues as we see fit. So my vote would be to let them be a part of our team since they already have dealt with and are sympathetic to our cause.

I currently conduct business (about 5% of my overall business) with gay and lesbian organizations and individuals, not because I am sympathetic to their sexual preferences or their cause, but rather because I am to be in this world not of it, a light to it, and because Jesus was a doctor to the sick. When afforded the opportunity I present my beliefs in the most unoffensive way possible...to me it is planting seeds. I don't go hang out at gay bars trying to convert individuals or preach at the top of my lungs that they are going to hell...but rather when the Lord opens a door I want to be in the vicinity that I am able to walk through it.

I have a lot of respect for Jonathan Turley...

http://jonathanturley.org/about/

...and I think he would be receptive to communication from a fellow attorney. I don't know that he would join our cause, but at the very least I think he would be willing to provide insight into our argument and or the opposing opinion. He may also know of individuals that he could refer us to that may be interested to join our cause or also offer insight. He made this statement in an article October 3rd, 2004:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/co ... rley_x.htm

"I personally detest polygamy. Yet if we yield to our impulse and single out one hated minority, the First Amendment becomes little more than hype and we become little more than hypocrites. For my part, I would rather have a neighbor with different spouses than a country with different standards for its citizens."

Obviously he is unaware of the benefits biblical polygyny offers everyone involved, and likely thinks like most that we live in compounds...etc...etc... This may provide a different perspective for him and the opportunity to learn what the majority of people like us are actually like.

What about the attorneys that fought to overturn Amendment 2 in Colorado, or the attorneys that fought to get DOMA overturned, or those fighting Proposition 8 right now? I would think that communicating with them would eventually lead to individuals sympathetic to our cause. If we put enough "feelers" out there we are bound to come across or be led to those who will eventually become part of our team.

Is there some type of list available of attorneys that specialize in Constitutional Law? Could we send out letters to them?
 
Scarecrow,

You make some valid points.

And the one who said he would rather have his neighbors doing something he did not like than to have a different standard of laws for each group is so on target.

I agree. I'd rather have a neighbor who is a Hindu than a law that undermines the natural rights of man to worship their Creator as their own conscience determines. Besides, it makes it easier to get the gospel out to people who are not in hiding. All laws that drive sinners underground is also a law that hinders the advance of the gospel of Christ. Our first priority is the gospel (Matt. 28:18-20)! God is big enough to change the hearts if we can simply keep people living in relative peace while we debate, argue, and try and win people with weapons not of the flesh (2 Cor. 10:4-5). The physical sword, use of force with the force of weapons (physical fleshly tools), can not be the way we stamp out evil, at least not in this age. Only Christ, who sees all and knows all, has that right which he shall one day exercise.

But in the meantime, because we walk in humility with fallibility, I'd rather give people the right to do something I don't like or agree with (and in reverse for them with me) in order that I can find them to get the gospel to them than to make a law backed by the physical fleshly weapons that drives them underground to where I can't find them with the gospel because they are afraid of the sword and thus will not tell me what they really believe and practice.

As for those lawyers, I would not be opposed to working with you to contact them for a preliminary discussion to see if there is a route they might suggest on who to use, talk to, etc.

Allen
 
Would it be better to have someone that has a legal background involved? Are there any on here that are attorneys that would be willing to help us get this started?
 
Scarecrow, YES, finding a good legal scholar, or even several of them would such a wonderful blessing of the Lord.

Let me move over to another forum and post a question just asking for that and see what info we receive.
 
I agree. I think the right to assemble would be a valid defence and the burden of proof would be on the state to argue why it would not apply.
 
Another good point about burden of proof. It seems to me that the weight would then be on them, the state, explaining as to why a peaceable assembly of any family type could be illegal.

Great additional point.

Scarecrow, no I have not sent anything as my schedule has been so hectic since last week and will be throughout this week. Would you be able to send this to them?
 
He sent me an email stating that the best email address to contact him at is:

kentschaffer@gmail.com

I will send him a link to this thread and make comments as well...
 
Dr. Allen,

We are very blessed here in Saskatchewan for we have been given the legal right to live common law marraige without becoming divorced from our first spouse. The Canadian Civil Marriage Act states:

Marriage - certain aspects of capacity
2. Marriage, for civil purposes, is the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others. However, common law marriage or marriage by cohabitation in Saskatchewan Canada does not require a civilly married person to become divorced prior to becoming the simultaneous legal spouse, under Saskatchewan family law, of another person(s).

I am definately not a legal scholar, but maybe there is something here that would be useful as some sort of precident.

Toni
 
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