Our story so far was a bit of a disappointment but a message to not give up

[Bartato]

There is a lot to unpack here, but I will try my best. As far as testimony, called to live it, and the higher law, I would respond by saying yes it is a direct revelation that we both have received that let us know that this is the correct way for our family. It is a higher law because it requires more giving and more selflessness on the part of everyone. So while it is multiple monogamous marriages with the same husband in each marriage, it still does require everyone to be closer to God in order to understand the needs of everyone in a bigger family and be willing to give more of oneself.

I would definitely agree with you 100% that the Bible allows for plural marriage. It’s as biblical as it gets. In fact, I have really been dissecting the history of how, where, and why plural marriage a.k.a. biblical marriage ever got lost in the first place. There is so much history and corruption over the last couple of millennia which accounts for why we find ourselves in the position today where polygyny is shunned and why a majority of people reject it either out of fear or anger and hatred because they don’t understand the doctrine or know their biblical and world history.

We may not disagree as much as we might originally think. But we certainly do have some doctrinal differences. And that’s totally OK. I don’t expect everyone to believe the same way I do. I do come from a latter-day Saint background. But you should know that mainstream latter-day Saints are not allowed to practice plural marriage, which unfortunately would separate me, not by my own doing, but by virtue of current church policies in place in which the mainstream LDS church more or less had to promise the federal government in the late 1800s that it would no longer institutionalize or sanction plural marriage. The church as you know stood on the brink of annihilation. I do not come from an FLDS background. I have some major problems with fundamentalists within any break off as I don’t feel they live plural marriage correctly. Many of them carry the wrong spirit of protest against the mainstream church and live plural marriage more as if it’s some religious obligation in which no one seems to be happy. Just misery for the women. I have a major problem with the marriage of underage girls, or manipulating and forcing women to be married or betrothed with their spiritual welfare held up on the line.

I know you disrespect and don’t care for Joseph Smith. I do understand that over the last century, there has been a lot of false narratives and accusatory things said or written about him. I will humbly tell you that I don’t believe many of those things are true and of the things that might be true, they are very misunderstood. The testimony given by many of Joseph’s plural wives describe a man who was very gentle and loving, a man who is very close with Jesus Christ. Each one of his wives were honored to be his wife. They weren’t forced. I have complete respect for him and will stand by him. But again, I don’t expect everyone to understand or feel the same. That’s where we can respectfully agree to disagree. I try to be considerate of everyone’s religion and find common ground. I have great respect for many within both the protestant and evangelical faith as I served a two-year LDS mission in the south and came to love so many of the people there, including their traditions, religious traditions, and rich culture. We live in a day and age where we will soon all be persecuted for our belief not just for plural marriage, but in liberty and our founding principles we hold with regard to this nation. Christianity in general will be the most persecuted group of people in the world. We have each other if everyone can reach out and set aside differences. We don’t all have to believe 100% alike, but we should be willing to have each other‘s back and stand on our founding principles and support each other’s rights as recognized by God in the Bill of Rights.

My position I have argued several times before is one of the loneliest positions to be in. I can’t be a part of my own religion due to policy, which is a consequence of unconstitutional federal laws, which aren’t even enforceable in this day and age. Most of the people within my religion are so far removed from plural marriage by multiple generations that they do not understand it any better than much of mainstream Christianity. Many of them hate it and will shun people who even kind of support it much less practice. I’m also shunned by most of the fundamentalist LDS groups and break offs because I’m willing to stand up for what is right and call them out on their manipulative abuse of women and underage trafficking of women as being property instead of a wife to live and cherish. That is not what the Lord had in mind when it comes to plural marriage, or monogamous marriage for that matter. I am shunned by most Protestant and evangelical Christians because I somehow worship a different Jesus Christ and because I also support plural marriage, which is something that Christianity in general has really struggled with. I am shunned by the worldly eat drink and be merry crowd of people who support LGBTQ, polyamory, swinging, and all the other perversions out there who just happen to also hate patriarchy, and in doing such will support anything except for a righteous marriage of one man and one woman in each instance, whether plural or monogamous. So I do hope you can take a little pity on my position and realize that I am here of the purest heart that I know how given that I am a mortal and highly imperfect man who constantly needs Jesus. I am trying to do what the Lord wants me to do. I am trying to be a good husband. I am trying to love the best way I know how, as well as love and give additional women in this fallen world the opportunity to also be a wife and have children.

I thank you so much for your graciousness in wishing my family well. My wife Natalie is a wonderful person and I am very blessed to have her in my life. Blessings like her happen for a reason and I fully believe the Lord is in the details. Things didn’t go according to plan with Chloe, but we learned a lot. I believe the next time will work correctly the way it’s meant to be.

God speed brother

Thank you for the kind, thoughtful, and detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to write. I also appreciate you not getting defensive, though I was somewhat negative about your religious background.

I certainly wish to be friendly and in agreement wherever possible. While I do not properly regard you as a brother in the Christian faith, I do regard you as a sincere and honorable man.

There is a lot that we agree on, and we can amicably disagree where necessary.

I also understand that your views on polygamy are as strongly hated within your religious context as mine are within my church context (if not even more).

I understand that the mainstream view of the Mormon faith is presently no more open to polygamy than my own Southern Baptist church is.

Those of us who insist on Biblical patriarchy (which can and sometimes does include polygamy) are a tiny minority in any religious group, and face a great deal of opposition. We want to stick together as much as possible.

 

[Jamie101]

Thank you for the kind, thoughtful, and detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to write. I also appreciate you not getting defensive, though I was somewhat negative about your religious background.

I certainly wish to be friendly and in agreement wherever possible. While I do not properly regard you as a brother in the Christian faith, I do regard you as a sincere and honorable man.

There is a lot that we agree on, and we can amicably disagree where necessary.

I also understand that your views on polygamy are as strongly hated within your religious context as mine are within my church context (if not even more).

I understand that the mainstream view of the Mormon faith is presently no more open to polygamy than my own Southern Baptist church is.

Those of us who insist on Biblical patriarchy (which can and sometimes does include polygamy) are a tiny minority in any religious group, and face a great deal of opposition. We want to stick together as much as possible.

Thank you for your kind response. And yes, please we need to stick together as much as possible. Knowing how southern Baptist faith and evangelicals view or understand my faith, I can understand why you can’t see me as a brother in Christ. And that’s perfectly understandable and OK. I will still consider you a brother in Christ.

It’s good that we can still disagree and be respectful of one another. And even better that we can agree in many areas.

 

[frederick]

My position I have argued several times before is one of the loneliest positions to be in.

I don't think any of us who are taking a biblical position on marriage are winning the popularity contests. It seems to be a very divisive topic for people across the religious spectrum, so you are amongst fellow soldiers in the battle here. Shalom

 

[Victoria82]

In my introduction to this forum, I briefly talked about how my wife Natalie gained a testimony of plural marriage, and felt called to live it before even I did. Once I finally confirmed that it is of God and that we should live it as a family, we met a girl who is almost identical age to my wife Natalie. I’m about 16 years older than my wife. She’s in her early 30s now while I’m in my late 40s. At the time of meeting this new girl, it was a few years ago when they were both 29. Her name was Chloe. From the beginning, both Natalie and Chloe got along very well.

Long story short, Chloe came here to visit multiple times, everything seemed wonderful. She agreed to marriage. Natalie insisted that we go off and that her sister wife have a honeymoon and some intimate time away with me, just like she got as a wife when we were first married. Natalie is very selfless that way.

Upon returning after several days, instead of being a jealous mess, Natalie was just very happy to see me. I of course missed her and was very happy to see her too. It brought us closer, even to the point of some of the closest intimacy we’ve ever had as a couple within the first 24 hours of being home. It didn’t cause her to be possessive or jealous, but rather the temporary time apart for several days strengthen our bond.

Chloe, however, started to be jealous. She had not yet moved here and had returned home to start to figure things out as far as when she was going to move, etc. In the process of doing that, she started nitpicking every little thing possible as far as why we had to live on a farm, why we couldn’t just live in the city with her in a different house than Natalie, why we choose to homeschool instead of dump our kids off in public school, and taking little stabs at Natalie to me behind Natalie’s back for doing nothing more than Natalie simply just being herself as a good wife and mother. Chloe would often get upset and talk about how Natalie gets to be with me more due to the fact that she had not yet moved here. Chloe also started talking about how she wanted to come here and take me to exotic places and travel the world. I immediately reminded her that I am a husband and father first and that while a little vacation here and there is a good thing, that excessive travel and expending resources outside of taking care of our home and family would be inappropriate. These are all things that we discussed prior to marriage in which at the time she agreed with, but it was for nothing more than to pacify both myself and Natalie.

In the end, she said she “couldn’t do this anymore“ and that she needed to move on and find someone else to “hang with” who wasn’t tied down to a farm and home where she could have him all to herself whenever she wanted. Yes, she was admitting that marriage was that disposable to her. She literally came into our home, made us think that she was for plural marriage, and that she respected Natalie, but in reality, her purpose was to have a travel buddy to have sex with on the road. There was no intention of true marriage. In the end, she even told me that despite what she said earlier, she didn’t even believe in God and that she felt abortion would be fine if she got pregnant after being with me.

This is a cautionary tale to everyone for two reasons…

1. It is so critical to meet in the correct places where people are grounded in the understandings and principles of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, dating websites, even the ones that tout that they support polygamy or plural marriage are rarely ever the correct place to meet. It is critical to make sure that whomever we marry, that they are deeply rooted in Christ and principles of responsibility, morality, children, family, and to know that marriage is a sacred covenant that is forever, as in non-disposable. Marrying the wrong person, especially in a plural family sitting is literally the equivalent of bringing evil and destruction into your home.

2. Do not get discouraged. The heart to do things right can sometimes mean that people let you down. But you get back up. You learn to love and trust again. You learn to have your eyes more wide open, but you don’t let it stop you from doing what is right. An experience that negative could have ruined my beautiful wife Natalie and her view of plural marriage, but instead it taught her all the more that what she is doing is right. She realizes that it’s not the institution of plural marriage but rather the integrity of those involved. She said “I know you did the right thing and that we are both doing the right thing, being wronged like that will not be upon our head.” It showed me how much of an amazing and godly woman she is and that moving forward, we don’t want to replicate a bad experience like Chloe with additional wives that come into our home. Natalie could have easily just said absolutely not, or no more plural marriage! Instead, she showed what women who are rooted in Christ, resilient, mature, wise, self-respecting, forgiving, down to earth with reality, and who wish to be dedicated wives and mothers are like. Good women who look to Christ and treat each other as Christ are such a strength to the home and family. They are the unbreakable rock of the family.

To sum everything up, yes, I have had experience being the husband in multiple marriages and practicing plurality in our home, but it certainly was a learning phase and test of temperance and strength. It was God’s lesson to teach us what not to do, and show us what our family should not look like, in order for us to know what a godly plural family can and does look like. I look forward to marriages in the near future that while everyone is imperfect, it is perfect and beautiful for our family nonetheless.

Thank you for sharing

 

[Jamie101]

Thank you for sharing

Thank you

 

[wanttoknowmorethanks]

@Jamie101
I've noticed you using several phrases, and wondered what you meant by them.

Here is the first.
"Natalie gained a testimony of plural marriage, and felt called to live it"

What does this mean? Is this some sort of internal conviction, perhaps derived from direct Divine revelation? Are you saying that God told her that polygamy is good, and that she should seek to help her husband practice it?

I'm just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

I'd tend to say that Natalie isn't "living plural marriage". She is in a monogamous marriage with you, a man who happens to be polygamous (so she is also living within a polygynous context).

I've also noticed you refer to polygamy as a "higher form" of marriage, indicating that you seem to regard it as spiritually superior to the form of marriage practiced by a man having only one wife.

Knowing that you are originally from Utah, and now live in Eastern Idaho, I assume that you are likely coming with some sort of Mormon and/or FLDS type religious background. Certain aspects of your terminology remind me of the Mormon faith.

I am an Evangelical/Reformed Baptist type Christian and have many friends/coworkers/associates who are of the Mormon faith. I am somewhat familiar with that faith and regard it to be something profoundly different than what I believe.

(I am speaking for myself, not the Biblical Families website, or anyone else on it.)

I think we also have pretty different understandings of polygamy/polygyny.

You and I would certainly agree that the moral Law of the Bible allows it, and treats it as legitimate.

I also believe that polygyny fits within the larger (and frankly more important) Covenantal and Patriarchal frameworks which God has established.

I do not know if these things are understood within the Mormon polygamy movement.

I do not believe that polygamy is spiritually superior to having only one wife, or having no wife at all. I see it as one of several legitimate options.

I also believe that marriage is meant to be lifelong and that divorce and remarriage are very serious matters.

When polygamy was historically practiced within the Mormon faith, some of these plural marriages were nothing more than adulterous unions where the polygamous man (like Joseph Smith) took women who were already married to other men. Stealing wives is adultery, not polygamy.

God approves of polygamy, but hates adultery with a burning fury that is beyond our comprehension.

I recognize many polygamous men of the Bible as my father's in the Faith, men like Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Gideon, David, and Josiah. I will learn from these men.

I do not recognize Joseph Smith, do not regard him as a father in the Faith, and do not wish to follow the type of polygamy he practiced.



BTW, Natalie sounds like a wonderful woman, may the Lord bless her, bless you, and bless your whole family.

I'm so sorry to hear about Chloe, and how things went with her.

I'm curious in what ways you believe polygeny fits within the larger and more important framework of God's design.

I'm new to all this and still grappling theologically, but my recent line of thinking is Jesus took no wives because although He could have taken every woman on earth to be His wife with the authority granted to Him by the Father, He was tasked with managing the whole church "Bride". You could argue that even though Jesus took no wives He is still polygynous at His core because the "Bride" of Christ has many members.

All this to say I can see how you are correct in this sense of polygamy potentially being the more important framework because although celibacy allows us to serve others in a more direct way it lacks the "Lion of Judah" archetype especially considering lions have prides, so perhaps polygyny is ordained by the Father to serve as a picture of His nature.

Lastly, I wonder if even the nativity story proves that the Father is polygynous by nature - His image is male and female and the ancient Hebrews believed the male aspect of God is essentially uncontrolled ever-expanding pure light and when He unites with His female image the output is Creation (like sunlight creating rainbows) - the creation of Jesus being the greatest output of God's male/female image union. So by the Father temporarily "claiming" Mary, He was demonstrating that although He is "married" to Himself He has no problem taking a "second" wife to achieve His greater purposes.

Hopefully that was coherent. Appreciate any responses.

 

[steve]

I'm curious in what ways you believe polygeny fits within the larger and more important framework of God's design.

I'm new to all this and still grappling theologically, but my recent line of thinking is Jesus took no wives because although He could have taken every woman on earth to be His wife with the authority granted to Him by the Father, He was tasked with managing the whole church "Bride". You could argue that even though Jesus took no wives He is still polygynous at His core because the "Bride" of Christ has many members.

All this to say I can see how you are correct in this sense of polygamy potentially being the more important framework because although celibacy allows us to serve others in a more direct way it lacks the "Lion of Judah" archetype especially considering lions have prides, so perhaps polygyny is ordained by the Father to serve as a picture of His nature.

Lastly, I wonder if even the nativity story proves that the Father is polygynous by nature - His image is male and female and the ancient Hebrews believed the male aspect of God is essentially uncontrolled ever-expanding pure light and when He unites with His female image the output is Creation (like sunlight creating rainbows) - the creation of Jesus being the greatest output of God's male/female image union. So by the Father temporarily "claiming" Mary, He was demonstrating that although He is "married" to Himself He has no problem taking a "second" wife to achieve His greater purposes.

Hopefully that was coherent. Appreciate any responses.

Well, I believe that Yeshuah actually did take wives, but he couldn’t have taken all of the women.
Yah IS both male and female, but is not married to himself.